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Topic History of: Cliff settles for millions from BBC and Police Max. showing the last 5 posts - (Last post first)
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Jo
Here are 20 points in common between the Caroline Robinson and Tonya Lee interviews.
1. They were both invited onto Jimmy Savile's/Rolf Harris's lap
Caroline Robinson: "[interviewer] he calls you over to come and sit – CR: Sit on his knee."
Tonya Lee: "He said, Tonya, you’ve got a lovely voice. Um, you know, why don’t you come over and chat to me. Come over and have a – a little chat to me about, you know, about, you know, what you’re doing and all that kind of stuff. So come and – and sit on my lap, so I sat on his lap."
2. Were wearing a skirt
CR: "I had such, like, a short skirt on"
TL: "that’s when he moved his hand up my – my skirt"
3. Said how their legs were positioned
CR: "usually when you’re sat on a – a person’s knee you always put your legs down the side or in the middle, but I was literally sat here on the groin part of him"
TL: "my legs were on the outside of his legs"
4. Felt him moving around
CR: "the more he rubbed his hand up and down my back and went closer towards me pants, I thought, something’s hard here, something’s uncomfortable, you know, what am I sat on? Not car keys or whatever, and I thought - so the more I wiggled, the more excited Jimmy got."
TL: "And I could feel him sort of moving a little bit. Um, actually I felt that first. He was sort of moving – sort of moving himself a little bit around, while I was sitting on him, but I didn’t – I didn’t think anything – I didn’t think anything of that"
5. Were groped and 6. mentioned their underpants
CR: "next minute I know, his hand is on me bum. He’s gone into me knickers and his hand was on me bum"
TL: "then he put his hand on my thigh, so then I started to feel a bit weird, so the hand he had on me he sort of moved around across my thigh... that’s when he moved his hand up my – my skirt...then it started to go up quite high, up towards um, my pants."
7. Were in a room with other people
CR: "And this is in a room full of people? CR: A room full of people."
TL: "After a day of sightseeing in London, the excited Theatre Group went to dinner at a local pub with Rolf Harris. T: I wasn’t drinking ‘cause I was only 14, so obviously I wasn’t allowed. Um, everyone was just telling stories. I know, um, we had a guitar or two there."
8. The other people didn't notice
CR: "So nobody saw what was going on? CR: No. It were perfect. Perfection. He’d got it down to perfection."
TL: "And no-one else in the room, in the pub, could see what was going on? TL: No. There was a tablecloth on the table so I think that was dangling down, so, you know, like you couldn’t see straight through into the table"
9. They got upset/scared and 10. went to the toilet
CR: "I – I like, wet myself. I know it sounds a bit rude, but it were like, I’ve wet meself, and I thought, I’ve got to go to the toilet, so I jumped up and I went out and I just cried. I just couldn’t - couldn’t believe it. Out of fear, did you say – do you think? CR: I think because I didn’t understand what were going on. It were strange."
TL: "Then I started to get worried and started to get scared, … The conversation was still going on and people were still singing and stuff like that, but then I’m – I’m – I could – I knew that – that was really making me feel scared…. I was gonna get out of here, so I went to the toilet.” Frightened and confused, Tonya hid in a bathroom cubicle."
11. They were subsequently groped again 12. top and bottom.
CR: "What did he do to you? CR: Touched me. Breast, tried to fondle"
TL: "then he put his hands, um, on my top then put his hands down, um, my top, um, and started to push my breasts, and then really quickly, with the same hand, um, before I knew it he put his hand up my skirt and he put his hand, um, down my tights and pants"
13. They both tried to scream but couldn't.
CR: "but the music was that – that – that – that loud, and the people were talking, that, no matter how much I tried to shout, nobody heard. It was like I opened my voice, my mouth, but the words didn’t - didn’t – didn’t come out"
TL: "I just – I wanted to scream but I couldn’t."
14. Groping on lap felt "weird"
CR: "P1: And you felt uncomfortable? CR: It didn’t feel right. P1: No. CR: It felt weird."
TL: "then he put his hand on my thigh, so then I started to feel a bit weird"
15. Groping was swift
CR: "next minute I know, his hand is on me bum"
TL: "it happened quickly", "it happened so fast"
16. Subsequent groping occurred in a confined space
CR: "There was nowhere to put it down because of the records, turntables and everything...his hand come across and I was in the alcove at the back"
TL: "I was sort of wedged in between, um, um, the pot plant"
17. Idea of running to the refuge of the toilet
CR: "P1: You jumped up, didn’t you, and made an excuse that you needed to go to the toilet and just – and just ran off."
TL: "He was gone and I ran straight into the toilets again."
18. Neither told their mother
CR: "P1: Well, your mum was only made aware of this last week, wasn’t she? CR: On Friday, yes."
TL: "I Did you want to tell your Mum? T: No I didn't actually."
19. Both mentioned mother's guilt and 20. protectiveness when asked about not telling her
CR: "P1: On Friday. This is the first time you have spoken of it so it must have come as a great shock to her. CR: I think it is, because like - like mums you try to protect your children, and then she feels guilty because she wasn’t there to protect me. I think that’s – that’s what hurts her rather than anything else."
TL: "T: No I didn't actually. Even though she was really excited about me going to the UK she's very protective, so she didn't want me to go on the trip and I just, you know, hounded her and hounded her and hounded her and told her that she was going to destroy my dream and you know it was really dramatic things and...and sort of guilted her into letting me go. So, there was that reason...and I... 'cos I think she would have just felt incredible guilt about it..um...and...and...I didn't want to..I didn't want to do that to her."
Tonya Lee said in an interview with Woman's Day magazine that she became "fixated on child sexual assault cases". I think it's therefore reasonable to suppose that she had been exploring the subject online and, with the internet buzzing with the Savile allegations, had found the Caroline Robinson interview and watched it at least once.
Bookworm
Good question. It is like he was on standby or appointed for these things. The Carole Packman case is uniquely linked to MWT via WIKI. Nothing odd about that either?
I do still wonder where information from hacking sits and where it is being passed to.
A trail is being followed as we speak.
"As Rolf Harris is found guilty of 12 counts of indecent assault, we're joined by Mark Williams Thomas. He broke the infamous Jimmy Savile case back in 2012, and has been liaising with the victims of Rolf Harris for many months."
What business did a journalist have "liaising" with supposed crime victims whose only evidence was their stories? Did this affect what they said in their police statements, e.g. did he relay what one had told him to another one, enabling them -- whether knowing he was doing so or not -- to coordinate their stories?
Or perhaps that could have happened in a different way. The police were, after all, responsible for taking the statements, including going to Australia for that purpose.
One thing that really puzzles me about the Rolf Harris case is the fact that Tonya Lee had a story (as told on Australian TV's A Current Affair in May 2013 that went straight to YouTube but is no longer there) that had around 20 points in common with the story told by Jimmy Savile accuser Caroline Robinson to This Morning in October 2012 (it also went straight to YouTube but is no longer there), suggesting that Lee had used Robinson as inspiration. (Transcripts of both interviews here.) But Lee's story also echoed Rolf Harris's main accuser's story: they both said that he had groped them on his knee (also claimed by Caroline Robinson about JS) and indecently assaulted them outside washing facilities (a shower in the main accuser's case, pub toilets in Lee's case) after lying in wait for them outside. The shower allegation was one of the most serious of the main accuser's allegations, as she was 13 on the holiday concerned. The main accuser also had other allegations, e.g. about being abused on the seashore on that same holiday, and later in bedrooms, a TV room and a swimming pool - none being locations that Lee could approximate.
How did those similarities come about? Was it a "modus operandi" on the part of Rolf Harris or something else?
Between them, the main accuser and Tonya Lee accounted for 10 of the 12 charges (7 for the main accuser, 3 for Lee), so Lee must have been key to endorsing the main accuser's underage abuse allegations (and vice versa) while helping to lend credibility to the subsequently overturned autograph queue molestation charge and Cambridge woman's left buttock squeeze allegation.
Jo
'M' wrote: Why did the person go to Williams-Thomas and not to the police in the first inst?
Yes, indeed. That's something I've often wondered about. I suspect they were running it past him.
In this video he says that a Rolf Harris accuser had approached him and that throughout Operation Yewtree he'd been passing information to the police. And in the video below he says that the first of Max Clifford's accusers, without whom he might never have been jailed, had approached him first:
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