www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/killed-ben...ving-soldier-3923771

ITK is rubbing his hands also.

andrew wrote:
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/killed-ben...ving-soldier-3923771

ITK is rubbing his hands also.

I don't think it is fair to suggest that anyone would be pleased that a man has died, and it also doesn't look like it is the "fault" of the benefits system if they followed the procedure for a missed appointment.

It does need an overhaul, because the emergency fund and the appeal system take a long time to come through, and it is a fat lot of good if you have no money to tide you over, but this looks like a straightforward depressive suicide to me, and we could equally blame his doctors, his sister, himself, and the horribly inadequate and ineffective mental health services (if he ever saw them)
but the fact is, depression is an illness that can happen to anyone, regardless of circumstances, and sometimes it kills no matter what you do to help.

Beware of headlinds and stories like this.

Its a newspaper story, so if you question stories that you disagree with, why not question the 'facts' around a story you'll happily repeat by a link ?

On the face of it, its seems shocking, but we don't know all the surrounding facts, he had a dangerous illness that could have mis-managed in terms of the outcome, the rest of the story is a 'belief' from his sister and a statement from her that 'I think he gave up'...........

So the reporting is making it sound like the Government are directly culpable by linking the reforms to this poor chaps circumstances, but that isn't fact, it isn't necessarily truth.....The Coroner hasn't stated the 'Government has killed this man'.....so the newspapers 'verdict' is not exactly the cause of death is it?

He has all my sympathy and respect, poor chap.......but Political gain and bad reporting surrounding his death doesn't do him justice.

A number of points raised here by the circumstances of David's death and his situation. He is oddly the same age as myself.
Firstly, it should be obvious to all even in the most highly unlikely event we had a fair just and caring country and welfare system that did not leave people desparate with little reason, there will be people who just take from the system. This taking and callousness is at all levels of society. Starting with our leaders who will collect £300 a day in the non elected house of Lords for little to no effort. Politicions who give themselves enormous raises while implementing austerity on the rest of us. And claim expenses for anything they can get away with and in many cases when caught out for abuse it is an apology and re imbursement. No dracon measures for them except in a very few cases. In many work places people get away with many things. Managers often bully workers who do the real work and so on. So I accept that there will be people who do not try and just take and that is within all sectors not just benefit claimants.
Secondly, benefit offices are encouraged to find any excuse to sanction. Back to the workforce. Often employees are late, miss something and so on. In the long run they will loose their job but in the short term it is a phone call saying did you realise you had an appointment. And so on. What I am saying is that for benefit claimants it has gone from a completely lack system to one that looks for fault. What say David had a black out and could not make the appointment no money for the phone etc. He is screwed.
Third yes depression can befall anyone even if happily married food on the table and no worry about the next bill. But one thing I can assure any reader is when money is uncertain and then gets cut it is difficult not to feel depressed. And no counselling or pills will help. But a good job and/or income then one can really start to work our of depression. It is getting the first two levels of Maslow's law satisfied is the first steps out of depressive circumstances. The reverse been true. There is much more that could be said but will leave it there. This whole situation is tragic for the UK.

honey!oh sugar sugar. wrote:
and it also doesn't look like it is the "fault" of the benefits system if they followed the procedure for a missed appointment.

Facts and Truth will not bother them, honey!

The hand-out brigade just want more hand-outs (without the inconvenience of getting out of bed)

Mr Reason wrote:
Beware of headlinds and stories like this.

Its a newspaper story,


.... and its in the Mirror !

The Loonies broadsheet !

honey!oh sugar sugar. wrote:
andrew wrote:
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/killed-ben...ving-soldier-3923771

ITK is rubbing his hands also.

I don't think it is fair to suggest that anyone would be pleased that a man has died, and it also doesn't look like it is the "fault" of the benefits system if they followed the procedure for a missed appointment.

It does need an overhaul, because the emergency fund and the appeal system take a long time to come through, and it is a fat lot of good if you have no money to tide you over, but this looks like a straightforward depressive suicide to me, and we could equally blame his doctors, his sister, himself, and the horribly inadequate and ineffective mental health services (if he ever saw them)
but the fact is, depression is an illness that can happen to anyone, regardless of circumstances, and sometimes it kills no matter what you do to help.

Appeal can take up to weeks, putting a claim for hardship can take up to 4 weeks before you get anything.

Why did the Tories have to fuck up ?

Maybe get Labour get in power to fix the dwp ?

I think his treatment by the state after his loyal service pushed him into a suicide.
He could have pursued other avenues to get food etc.He shouldn't have had to,but that is another story.

In my local Jobcentre today a man with 2 broken legs,he of course missed a appointment as he was in hospital getting legs in plaster, his mum went down to explain the situation showed the floor manager a hospital note.

Guess what ?

The lad with broken legs has been sanctioned.

When will Mr Smith live on £53 per week as he said he could do ?

It amazes me the amount of double standards and hypocrisy that are exhibited on this board. The sarcastic shout of "because it is a good story" is made by people who constantly bend and stretch facts to fit their own good story.

Murder is "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another"
This death wasn't unlawful or premeditated or done by one human being on another. It wasn't murder. Why was the word used, because it made a better story.

The above having been said I do think there is a story that needs investigating. There are people are suffering as a result of the benefit cut backs but it is difficult to answer the call to cut down on benefit cheats while making sure things like this don't happen, how do you achieve the balance?

andrew wrote:
honey!oh sugar sugar. wrote:
andrew wrote:
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/killed-ben...ving-soldier-3923771

ITK is rubbing his hands also.

I don't think it is fair to suggest that anyone would be pleased that a man has died, and it also doesn't look like it is the "fault" of the benefits system if they followed the procedure for a missed appointment.

It does need an overhaul, because the emergency fund and the appeal system take a long time to come through, and it is a fat lot of good if you have no money to tide you over, but this looks like a straightforward depressive suicide to me, and we could equally blame his doctors, his sister, himself, and the horribly inadequate and ineffective mental health services (if he ever saw them)
but the fact is, depression is an illness that can happen to anyone, regardless of circumstances, and sometimes it kills no matter what you do to help.

Appeal can take up to weeks, putting a claim for hardship can take up to 4 weeks before you get anything.

Why did the Tories have to fuck up ?

Maybe get Labour get in power to fix the dwp ?



They haven't objected to the changes very much.

andrew wrote:
In my local Jobcentre today a man with 2 broken legs,he of course missed a appointment as he was in hospital getting legs in plaster, his mum went down to explain the situation showed the floor manager a hospital note.

Guess what ?

The lad with broken legs has been sanctioned.

When will Mr Smith live on £53 per week as he said he could do ?


Are you sure it is a sanction and not a change in benefits? If you are in hospital the benefit changes (because the state would be feeding you twice) and if you are not eligible for work it is a different benefit.
The problem is that there is a delay in processing which causes distress and it could all be sorted out easily if they chose to.

Blueboy said "....There are people are suffering as a result of the benefit cut backs but it is difficult to answer the call to cut down on benefit cheats while making sure things like this don't happen, how do you achieve the balance?" To really anwser the question the real problem firstly needs to be acknowledged which is lack of jobs. Review the 30 years after the second world war and you will see a society closer to full employment a less a need for social security. So reducing retirement age would be a step towards answering the problem there are many other steps that could be taken. But the problem has to faced before it can be answered.

John Marsh wrote:
Blueboy said "....There are people are suffering as a result of the benefit cut backs but it is difficult to answer the call to cut down on benefit cheats while making sure things like this don't happen, how do you achieve the balance?" To really anwser the question the real problem firstly needs to be acknowledged which is lack of jobs. Review the 30 years after the second world war and you will see a society closer to full employment a less a need for social security. So reducing retirement age would be a step towards answering the problem there are many other steps that could be taken. But the problem has to faced before it can be answered.


But an injustice even to one person is still an injustice that shouldn't happen. Even if we had full employment there would still be some people in need of benefit changes that should (and could) be dealt with on the spot.

I am not arguing against benefit cuts (although I think some get too much and some too little) but leaving someone with no means of support for weeks is uncivilised, and backdating the claim doesn't put it right.

Welfare is an old debate.
It became obvious back in the early 70s that welfare needed reforming,but then you get to Thatcher's 3 million unemployed,then you see her using welfare to stop a revolution amongst the proletariat made surplus to requirements by her useless economic policies.

Nothing much was done,then along comes the coalition,in a panic,and while they did at least make a brave attempt they have got things wrong,and add EU labour laws,and you really do have a problem.

John Marsh wrote:
Review the 30 years after the second world war and you will see a society closer to full employment a less a need for social security. So reducing retirement age would be a step towards answering the problem there are many other steps that could be taken.

We are not just looking for "bodies" to fill gaps anymore ....

It doesn't matter how many retire - if you have no talent, no skills, and no ability then there is no job for you.

END OF !

In The Know (as always) wrote:
John Marsh wrote:
Review the 30 years after the second world war and you will see a society closer to full employment a less a need for social security. So reducing retirement age would be a step towards answering the problem there are many other steps that could be taken.

We are not just looking for "bodies" to fill gaps anymore ....

It doesn't matter how many retire - if you have no talent, no skills, and no ability then there is no job for you.

END OF !


Yes. Not everyone is academic or artistic, and no matter how many qualifications, no matter how much training, if you are not suited to the jobs that young people are brainwashed into believing they have a right to, you will always be at the back of the queue.