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TOPIC: Death not suspicious
#168444
Death not suspicious 1 Week, 5 Days ago Karma: 49
Not unless you regard the situation regarding false allegations, evidence of one person being accepted as evidence, media inflation of good stories, compensation culture, smearing of dead celebrities unable to defend themselves, encouragement of police for perverting the course of justice... yes, not suspicious at all!

news.sky.com/story/ex-welsh-minister-car...-suspension-11117363
 
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#168453
Re:Death not suspicious 1 Week, 5 Days ago Karma: 0
Such a waste of a life. Condolences to his family and friends.

Sadly there will be those who see this as an admission of his guilt.

This whole thing makes me sick to the pit of my stomach.
 
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#168472
In The Know

Re:Death not suspicious 1 Week, 5 Days ago  
Yeksum wrote:
Sadly there will be those who see this as an admission of his guilt

It IS an admission of guilt !!

He didn't want his family to hear the allegations from SEVERAL women.
 
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#168488
Re:Death not suspicious 1 Week, 4 Days ago Karma: 49
Not necessarily ITK and if that was his motive for suicide it was a seriously flawed one; as everybody knows, death does not stop false allegations.
 
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#168490
In The Know

Re:Death not suspicious 1 Week, 4 Days ago  
JK2006 wrote:
Not necessarily ITK and if that was his motive for suicide it was a seriously flawed one; as everybody knows, death does not stop false allegations.

But it does stop the trial - where all the details are heard !!!!
 
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#168495
Re:Death not suspicious 1 Week, 4 Days ago Karma: 49
Your faith in the judicial system never ceases to amaze me ITK; but your belief that many more attend trials than read the papers is peculiar.
 
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#168534
In The Know

Re:Death not suspicious 1 Week, 4 Days ago  
In The Know wrote:
It IS an admission of guilt !

He didn't want his family to hear the allegations from SEVERAL women.


Family reveal that he was facing serious groping allegations
- news.sky.com/story/carl-sargeant-family-...sters-death-11118563
- which rather nails the LIE that he didn't know what the allegations were.


The truth is he DID know what the allegations were
- and knew he could not wriggle out
- so killed himself to save the family hearing every sordid detail?
 
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#168538
Re:Death not suspicious 1 Week, 4 Days ago Karma: 49
Read the family statement ITK
 
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#168539
In The Know

Re:Death not suspicious 1 Week, 4 Days ago  
I did ... and its a sad attempt to "cover up" the facts.

It is quite normal for someone to be suspended while an investigation takes place.

Then - if there is a case to answer - the defendant would be told precise details of the allegations, and asked to answer the charges.

He "jumped the gun" (and evaded justice?) and killed himself ... clearly very afraid of what was about to come out (and only he knew !)

.... and the family chose to reveal what he had been accused of, and have tried to "bend" the facts of the case ever since (not really surprising).
 
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#168540
Re:Death not suspicious 1 Week, 4 Days ago Karma: 49
Oh I do hope it never happens to you ITK but if it does you can be sure that we here on the board will assume the best of you and presume you innocent.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/welsh-labour-...l-sargeant-prqp3rflr
 
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Last Edit: 2017/11/08 17:14 By JK2006.
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#168543
In The Know

Re:Death not suspicious 1 Week, 4 Days ago  
and therein lies the problem ... so blinkered that you can never accept that anyone ever commits a crime.
 
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#168544
Re:Death not suspicious 1 Week, 4 Days ago Karma: 49
Not at all; I simply do not go to either extreme; there are many crimes and many false allegations and, most of all, exaggerations.
 
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#168600
In The Know (as always !)

Re:Death not suspicious 1 Week, 3 Days ago  
In The Know wrote:
I did ... and its a sad attempt to "cover up" the facts.

It is quite normal for someone to be suspended while an investigation takes place.

Then - if there is a case to answer - the defendant would be told precise details of the allegations, and asked to answer the charges.

He "jumped the gun" (and evaded justice?) and killed himself ... clearly very afraid of what was about to come out (and only he knew !)

.... and the family chose to reveal what he had been accused of, and have tried to "bend" the facts of the case ever since (not really surprising).


After his death, Mr Sargeant's family released correspondence showing he was facing allegations of "unwanted attention, inappropriate touching or groping". The 49-year-old, a married father of two, had denied the claims.

According to a letter sent to Labour on Monday, Mr Sargeant's solicitor had demanded immediate details of the claims, along with the names of complainants.

The correspondence revealed there was an anticipated hearing date of 16 January, while the solicitor added the "ongoing delay" of Mr Sargeant learning details of the allegations was "both prejudicial to the preparation of our client's case but also to his physical and mental wellbeing".

A Labour party spokesperson said: "Following allegations brought to the attention of Welsh Labour by Welsh First Minister Carwyn Jones, an investigation was launched by the UK Party.

"The Labour Party governance and legal unit spoke with Carl Sargeant and, in line with agreed procedure, outlined the nature of the allegations that had been received and how the complaints process works."

all from - news.sky.com/story/carwyn-jones-had-no-a...rl-sargeant-11119966
 
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#168618
Re:Death not suspicious 1 Week, 2 Days ago Karma: 3
In The Know (as always !) wrote:
In The Know wrote:
I did ... and its a sad attempt to "cover up" the facts.

It is quite normal for someone to be suspended while an investigation takes place.

Then - if there is a case to answer - the defendant would be told precise details of the allegations, and asked to answer the charges.

He "jumped the gun" (and evaded justice?) and killed himself ... clearly very afraid of what was about to come out (and only he knew !)

.... and the family chose to reveal what he had been accused of, and have tried to "bend" the facts of the case ever since (not really surprising).


After his death, Mr Sargeant's family released correspondence showing he was facing allegations of "unwanted attention, inappropriate touching or groping". The 49-year-old, a married father of two, had denied the claims.

According to a letter sent to Labour on Monday, Mr Sargeant's solicitor had demanded immediate details of the claims, along with the names of complainants.

The correspondence revealed there was an anticipated hearing date of 16 January, while the solicitor added the "ongoing delay" of Mr Sargeant learning details of the allegations was "both prejudicial to the preparation of our client's case but also to his physical and mental wellbeing".

A Labour party spokesperson said: "Following allegations brought to the attention of Welsh Labour by Welsh First Minister Carwyn Jones, an investigation was launched by the UK Party.

"The Labour Party governance and legal unit spoke with Carl Sargeant and, in line with agreed procedure, outlined the nature of the allegations that had been received and how the complaints process works."

all from - news.sky.com/story/carwyn-jones-had-no-a...rl-sargeant-11119966



If everything was done by the book, the book stinks and needs re-writing.
 
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#168632
Re:Death not suspicious 1 Week, 2 Days ago Karma: 0
In The Know wrote:
Yeksum wrote:
Sadly there will be those who see this as an admission of his guilt

It IS an admission of guilt !!

He didn't want his family to hear the allegations from SEVERAL women.


Guilty or innocent! In many of these cases of accusations on a person's word only there is simply "no evidence" to confirm the accusation, so from a starting point (the same starting point for trial in theory) is the position of innocence. And concerned responsible citizens for a society with justice must hold their counsel until the media and others like the police establish real substantiated evidence.

Reality of a confession, suicide or many coming forward, for example, to an impartial jury or group of impartial judges (impartial is "non existent" of course, so it is a theoritical position, as an ideal to be obtained against the odds) is not reliable evidence of guilt for them to base a decision on. The numbers, confession or suicide is more a starting point for an evidence based investigation for the CPS to be presented with reliable evidence.

On the issue of historic accusations certain sectors and types like from Operation Yewtree and other available evidence indicates that by the numbers, bandwagoners, money offered etc is nearing the 100% mark of false claims. But other areas by the kind of early environment and early days of historic accusations meant a lot less false accusers. I am thinking of the Catholic church for example where priests are committed to abstainance etc which is a situation bound to cause abuse by some of those who are not ideally suited to the life. And often the abuse was known at the time with records and other leaders acknowledging the problem (i.e. reliable evidence)(Not this told a family member, close friend and no one believed etc which could be true but nonetheless is not a source of reliable evidence at all as collusion is so highly probable).

My father committed suicide and it never bothered me as the suicide in my father's circumstances was a viable option. But outsiders or even other family members may of associated the suicide to all sorts of reasons with no basis.

In this case here, we the public have no idea to the real reasons for the suicide (yes the accusations obviously had some emotional input but maybe simply the straw that broke the Camel's back and say for one argument no more money for the fight/s ahead etc (i.e. a money problem as opposed to guilt or innocence)). Take a confession can be obtained by a person's own lawyer putting the pressure on. In the UK barristers can work both sides. So it could be possible that a barrister encourages a client to confess for a supposed lesser charge "acting in the client's interest" in fact could be translated as acting in the barrister's "own interest" to get work from the CPS and not be seen to be too supportive of those nasty sex abusers etc.

I notice that one media report of the lady seeking a public "something" funded prosecution stated that the police had a blood sample tested for a "rape drug" and nothing was found. So little is always known and the media want the story more than the facts. But in the Black Cab driver rapist's the student was also tested for a rape drug and nothing was found because the concoction used was the driver's own invention which was actually identified later. So could the accused used his own invention rape date drug. I have no idea. Did the police learn from the assault on the student and now test for any abnormalities. No idea. Only thing we know is they love to prosecute rape cases now. It's "the rage" so the evidence may well of not been there.

So much is uncetain in all these cases and above all else prosecutions and conclusions need to be based on reliable evidence. Full stop.
 
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#168656
In The Know

Re:Death not suspicious 1 Week, 2 Days ago  
wjlmarsh wrote:
In many of these cases of accusations on a person's word only there is simply "no evidence" to confirm the accusation

But it wasn't ONE person's word, was it ... there are "several" accusers.

And now he's killed himself he has managed to silence them all !
 
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#168669
Re:Death not suspicious 1 Week, 2 Days ago Karma: 3
In The Know wrote:
wjlmarsh wrote:
In many of these cases of accusations on a person's word only there is simply "no evidence" to confirm the accusation

But it wasn't ONE person's word, was it ... there are "several" accusers.

And now he's killed himself he has managed to silence them all !


I very much doubt that!

If several people come forward after a public claim, and there is a financial reward, and they dont need to prove anything, how can that be an indication of guilt?
 
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#168679
Re:Death not suspicious 1 Week, 1 Day ago Karma: 49
And in my experience the deader the celebrity, the more false allegations get made. Although perhaps in ITK world there are no false accusers.
 
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