But there isn't any - it all Labour's

Init

I'm only here because I have no friends,and it's also Liberal debt innit?

The lunatics have taken over the asylum!

honey!oh sugar sugar. wrote:
The lunatics have taken over the asylum!

Yeah...I'm only here to insult people.

Ampleforth and Downside - RCC public schools; an independent inquiry now confirms 'horrendous and disgraceful' child abuse over 40 years.

So far, only 10 Catholic monks have been convicted or cautioned because of cover-ups, and the burning of 'wheelbarrows' of evidence.

On the BBC news website today - such abuse was worldwide, and concentrated on the vulnerable and those seeking education by catholic clergy.

I don't go along with all these witch hunts; we all knew about vicars and choirboys and the abuse of the young has gone on for decades in every single walk of life; so have a lot of other kinds of abuse (have they started on models and photographers yet?). But the vast majority of sex was consensual and desired for one reason or another (casting couches - how many actors and actresses were only to happy to be fiddled with, if it meant stardom? I seem to remember both Tony Curtis and Alain Delon had rumours about their past). Does any of it really matter now? Aren't there current problems which need solving, far higher on anybody's priority list?

JK2006 wrote:
I don't go along with all these witch hunts; we all knew about vicars and choirboys and the abuse of the young has gone on for decades in every single walk of life; so have a lot of other kinds of abuse (have they started on models and photographers yet?). But the vast majority of sex was consensual and desired for one reason or another (casting couches - how many actors and actresses were only to happy to be fiddled with, if it meant stardom? I seem to remember both Tony Curtis and Alain Delon had rumours about their past). Does any of it really matter now? Aren't there current problems which need solving, far higher on anybody's priority list?


This is no witch hunt - and not consensual.

Simply the abuse of vulnerable and very young children by those in loco parentis!

Catholic monks, this time.

Yet again - in Yorkshire and Somerset, the Catholic church denied all wrongdoing.

With the mandatory lying and cover-ups, now accepted....by most...

Indeed. There's a lot of it about.

Yes - 'a lot' more than we think within the Roman Catholic Church.

Still no apology - or redress - from the Vatican or the Benedictine Order.


They (RCC) are only too aware that apologies mean admission.

And open the door to law suits.


Which will inevitably happen here following this Report.

Just like they have in virtually every jurisdiction on earth - against the RCC.


In the aftermaths of failed cover-ups, denials and lies....

Now it seems certain that Downside and Ampleforth were far from alone in fostering paedophilic activity - by its monks and clergy.

Alumni included aristocracy, pillars of industry and the judiciary - and the Catholic church was aware, yet lied to cover up. As usual.

The reluctance to prosecute monks, priests and ministers - as well as bishops and cardinals - is coming to an end, at last. And the hope must be for a Nuremburg type tribunal.

So many families were fooled by the pretence of a good education for their children (@ £35k pa) by men of God - who turned out to be just wolves in sheeps' clothing.

I'm no fan of the Catholic Church and can well believe it had/has abusers among its ranks but I can't help but wonder how many of these adults who never thought to go to police before and are now popping up late in the day are genuine, as opposed to bogus and opportunistic and hoping to get a payout from a famously wealthy organisation.

An individual aledging sexual abuse by a minor celebrity for money - is one thing.

But when the practice is endemic in a global organisation - the RCC - serious attention is merited.


Such allegations have been proven on every continent - perpetrated by the church's employees.

In hundreds of US dioceses, in dozens of states - with billions in compensation paid.

Always after the mandatory RCC denials.


Closer to home, in Ireland - it was worse (per capita).

Now, the UK RCC equivalents of Eton and Harrow have been exposed as child sex hotbeds for over 40 years.

What,I wonder, has to happen next - as significantly, convictions remain startlingly rare here for RCC personnel...

Jo wrote:
I'm no fan of the Catholic Church and can well believe it had/has abusers among its ranks but I can't help but wonder how many of these adults who never thought to go to police before and are now popping up late in the day are genuine, as opposed to bogus and opportunistic and hoping to get a payout from a famously wealthy organisation.



IICSA Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse is FLAWED -reason WITNESSES UNRELIABLE - no criteria set out to present thoroughly researched and verified witnesses for the inquiry that each witness testimony can be relied upon which is the same for the Catholic witnesses. As stated somewhere "Garage In Garbage out".

So who is telling the truth / or as near as possible and who is lying no way to know.

Same with Barney sweeping statements

"Such allegations have been proven on every continent - perpetrated by the church's employees.

In hundreds of US dioceses, in dozens of states - with billions in compensation paid."

It's a pity that a group of reliable witnesses was not the first order of the day for the inquiry. The number available may of been reduced to say less than 1% of the current number available (no idea as exercise never carried out) And current evidence for police, CPS and court failings shows convicted individuals still cannot be used without reviewing available evidence of the trial as many cases do not meet the overriding fair trial standard of European Human Rights which I can only guess overrides the "you will be believed" and unverified witnesses (noted as victims) on the idea one witness statement is sufficient to convict. And even when the trial conviction is highly likely to be all up to scratch additional witnesses (called victims) cannot be used at an inquiry as normally can not be verified and it is possible and highly likely for bandwagoners.

IICSA provides data but to use it the names given need researching to verify what the details really are. I see very few actually convicted Catholics and hard to know what the real extend of wrongdoing was. As it is history. Must add for a murder enquiry a body or missing person is a requirement. Evidence of a crime. Even then the crime scene details are checked normally to establish if the death was accidental, suicide or murder. Missing person could be misadventure or turn up sometime/ somewhere.

Historic sexual abuse not reported at the time even after a few days whether it is true or not means that any evidence is lost or minimal (Really sad for real victims and makes me mad when people getaway with crimes). So to reiterate the complainants at the enquiry have no way to even show a crime in fact happened. No their word is not sufficient at all. People lie all the time. Tell party stories and so on. When a friend or family member tell their story it is the automatic reaction to accept the story as not to do so will destroy trust for family member or friend.

IICSA is thus FLAWED

Archbishop Adelaide Wilson now convicted to 12 months imprisonment, and will probably be allowed to serve it at home.

No apology whatsoever from him - and no comment, yet, from the Pope(s) or Vatican concerning his conviction.


Slowly, but surely, senior RCC clerics are being rounded up, prosecuted and convicted - before they (as usual) vanish to the Vatican.

Next up - the as yet innocent Cardinal Pell; his trials are being in some secrecy, for some reason - without media coverage!?


In the UK - some of the Ampleforth and Downside clergy - named in the recently published inquiry must be wondering how our legal system will react.

And Pope Francis must be regularly redrafting his scripts and statements for his Irish visit later this month.



Mea culpa - won't do.....

Barney wrote:
Archbishop Adelaide Wilson now convicted to 12 months imprisonment, and will probably be allowed to serve it at home.

No apology whatsoever from him - and no comment, yet, from the Pope(s) or Vatican concerning his conviction.


Slowly, but surely, senior RCC clerics are being rounded up, prosecuted and convicted - before they (as usual) vanish to the Vatican.

Next up - the as yet innocent Cardinal Pell; his trials are being in some secrecy, for some reason - without media coverage!?


In the UK - some of the Ampleforth and Downside clergy - named in the recently published inquiry must be wondering how our legal system will react.

And Pope Francis must be regularly redrafting his scripts and statements for his Irish visit later this month.



Mea culpa - won't do.....

So I look up the reference to see what the crime and evidence was and here's what it says

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Wilson_(bishop)

In May 2018 Wilson was found guilty of failing to report allegations of child sexual abuse to civil authorities in 1976 when he was an assistant parish priest in East Maitland, New South Wales ....

...Following his ordination in 1975, Wilson's first posting was to the parish of East Maitland, New South Wales, where he served as an assistant priest

....

The second allegations were made in mid-May 2010 by a victim of convicted paedophile James Fletcher, who had also been a priest in the Maitland-Newcastle diocese. According to the ABC, "[The victim said] Archbishop Philip Wilson was a priest living in the bishop's house in Maitland when Fletcher was also living there in the late 1970s, and that Philip Wilson should have been aware that he was being sexually abused in Fletcher's upstairs bedroom."[21] Wilson denied having any knowledge of the assault and said he had not been living in the house at the time, but in a flat behind the residence.[22][23]
Trial and conviction
In March 2015, NSW Police issued Wilson with a future court attendance notice. He faced a charge of "concealing a serious offence regarding child sexual abuse in the Hunter region" in 1976.

SO WHAT AM I MISSING!!!! The guy is an assistant 1976 fairly newly ordained sharing accommodation that is he lived in a flat near the house in 1976 then one person in 2010 34 years later states he should of known.

As I read, it appears the accused between this Australian case and the following South Wales UK case are totally difference in acts (Australian alleged) and evidence (Australian case one person's word only). One definitely a real sad case and the other highly unlikely and whose to say if as junior he may suspected something and passed on a concern in his general daily life that he would of forgot, not remembered, one of thousands of daily things. The South Wales UK shows the accused are evil horrible and so on. Evidence left right and centre. Current time and accused directly involved. A comparison to help show what makes for real crime and imagined crime. (Or if on the off chance something is for real the legal standard is not reached and with good reason - as reality is completely unknown even to accuser and accused who both may remember events if at all wrongly. No one can really know.)

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/police-off...raping-baby-13043397

The South Wales UK case - I as always find the extend of the behaviour well and truly beyond anything I can understand and had wondered how much it happens and it is hard to know if rare or more common with the whole system in a number of countries chasing phantoms, acting criminally themselves that is..

Your last couple of posts seem to suggest (perhaps rightly) that this abuse was common in different eras/ways of life - and exagerated in the case of the RCC.

As a Wiki user, a Google of 'Catholic church sexual abuse case' may be helpful - showing the universal magnitude of that organisation's modus operandi.

More worrying is the Vatican's willingness to support their errant members - as well as their reluctance to release records which may be problematical.


The unique and completely independent status of Vatican City - HQ of the RCC - is also a literal and omnifificcent Get out of Jail card....

Barney wrote:
Your last couple of posts seem to suggest (perhaps rightly) that this abuse was common in different eras/ways of life - and exagerated in the case of the RCC.

As a Wiki user, a Google of 'Catholic church sexual abuse case' may be helpful - showing the universal magnitude of that organisation's modus operandi.

More worrying is the Vatican's willingness to support their errant members - as well as their reluctance to release records which may be problematical.


The unique and completely independent status of Vatican City - HQ of the RCC - is also a literal and omnifificcent Get out of Jail card....

Barney in my posts I try both to acknowledge that for some inexplicable reason humans inflict abuse on each other that is long term, unreasonable more than a blip through frustration or something and secondly to deal with the known problems those in responsible positions have then also acted to inflict criminal acts. As JK has pointed out three people who he knew had their lives destroyed literally by the careless action not of pedophiles but the so called protectors - the police.

And Barney I agree as I have posted the Catholic church along with most things in society need reforming and need to acknowledge their own crimes, ineptitude and so on. When I say crimes it seems at present more so in convicting "most likely" innocent people, with the media rather than providing checks on society through investigative journalism plugging for sensational stories, like Cliff Richards home searched and helicopter, disgusting.

What my point is not to ignore the problem in any area but to identify the "real" extend, what is real and what is not. Like how many men "really" do abuse young boys and children sexually. It happens we know at times with the death of the young children. So how can it be prevented (if possible to zero) or minimized at least. This information could be gathered "accurately" in real time as opposed to historical stories that can be anything from the absolute truth to 1000's all lying about one person as happened with Jimmy Savile. People will believe anything if it is the fashion as not reason but emotion drives people.

Barney in your admirable quest to see areas in the Catholic church exposed and a new openness I fully endorse. In fact I want to see all reasonable steps taken in courts, police, CPS, Catholic church, children's homes, schools, sport and so on for accountability, transparency and compassion / reasonableness (I think the idea of "equity" in the legal system was to take out the harshness, vindictiveness and add compassion - someone may know). Transparency of course does not mean the concept of anonymity need be lost (Should be extended to the accused so opportunists are not encouraged to chase the money etc). Case in point were anonymity can remain but transparency provided is the Cambridge accuser in Rolf Harris' first trial. The event that she alleged happened was moved by almost three years. So anonymity would be to give her an ID for revealing information then transparency would be say calling her Miss Cambridge and providing details like was she really in Cambridge at that time new or old date given. And was she at the event and was she known for lying or a basically honest person even maybe went through at that time of having mental delusions. Nothing was ever made known. I end up wondering if the later BBC journalism and her stories were one and the same person masquerading as difference individuals. (I am not going to be surprised if we ever find out it will be another case of police withholding information that would of been extremely beneficial to Rolf Harris).

You know Barney your concern has opened my eyes and reading the information on the various individuals accused I found many who had done great positive endeavours for society and evidence to the real extend of media hype was only hot air. So basing conclusions on commissions hearing stories is not identifying the problem or solutions but leans towards criminality in creating accusations and criminal convictions unlawfully (though I see one or two noted stories with records would confirm historically that as would be expected some child sexual abusers). That is what annoys me because all that happens is another inquiry follows with lots more innocent men accused and going to jail and thousands and thousands of fraudsters obtaining money while destroying the lives of many. Is that justice?

Yes the Catholic church should not cover up and ignore problems but neither should the justice system, politicians, media printing anything sensational all those involved collecting money and been noticed. MWT is a case in point masquerading as child protection (A really good endeavour in itself) but his opportunism to gain financially and receive celebrity status has meant he has assisted in destroying many innocent people's lives. He said he was a policeman and Surrey police agree he was there for a time but when I saw the first broadcast of the Jimmy Savile expose I sat through the whole thing with the one question in my mind "what is the evidence?" and the program ended and still the question hang there. There was none!! Just gossipy girls with their party stories grabbing the limelight. Now we know that his use of JK in the same progam to promote his credentials was using one badly investigated case (none at all) to promote another hot air TV program case. The failure of the BBC to support the Newsnight Editor who followed the BBC rules (rules noted in later report and were very good) and failed to investigate plus all other senior decision makers in all the organizations involved including the children's help line organization (can't remember the initials) failed to examine the situation. Can't say evidence because there was almost none at all. It was and is catastrophically destructive on literally thousands of lives. That includes the wives, husbands and many others associated with the accused. Think of Britain's image and how they "set up" Rolf Harris who painted a portrait of the queen.

So if the Catholic sexual abuse is as widespread as the media reports and the cover ups are so horrendous and far reaching then I for one prefer to see evidence not just historical stories. So if say from now on in current time the police and senior people follow up on all reports, thoroughly investigate unbiased and document etc then a sane assessment can be made and corrective action taken. And I can then rest easy!!!! (Even say Barney you were right!!!)

You dream

Even the RCC have had to admit the abuse

A Pope resigned because of it


But ignore Google

Together with the outcomes of investigations everywhere


It never happened....