https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-45918845

Another grooming case involving Moslem men grooming White british girls. After Rochdale, Rotherham, Oxford and now Huddersfield how many more of these cases will there be before we have to admit there is a problem with Pakistani men grooming white girls. I know many people on here will immediately scream "False allegations" because there isn't high definition footage of the rapes taking place but there were dozens of independant allegations. The cops were too scared to investigate these cases because they were afraid of been declared "racist". If they weren't busy investigating allegations from 20 or 30 years ago, many against dead people these cases could have been resolved much earlier.

I don't see any logic in assuming that allegations against Pakistani men are any less prone to be false or more prone to be true than those against white men. Unless, of course, one has an inherent bias against Pakistanis.

Exactly Jo; I suspect there is some truth, some lies and a huge amount of exaggeration involved, as usual. Police want it; lawyers want it; media wants it; why not colour it up? So willing children keen to make money become innocent rape victims and horny older men become monsters.

JK2006 wrote:
Exactly Jo; I suspect there is some truth, some lies and a huge amount of exaggeration involved, as usual. Police want it; lawyers want it; media wants it; why not colour it up? So willing children keen to make money become innocent rape victims and horny older men become monsters.

If they are children, they are not willing. Some of these were only eleven.

It does gloss over the rotten and ineffective care the "looked after" (my arse) children were getting though.

I'm not convinced by much of this; were they really 11? And not 15 adapted by memory? Can children never be willing to try things - to start things - to do things? I seem to remember children being very willing to kill other children or was that just Lord of the Flies fiction? Just because society and the law say something does not always make it true. Yes legally nobody under 16 can "consent" to sex, let alone be "willing". Is that reality? You tell me.

JK2006 wrote:
I'm not convinced by much of this; were they really 11? And not 15 adapted by memory? Can children never be willing to try things - to start things - to do things? I seem to remember children being very willing to kill other children or was that just Lord of the Flies fiction? Just because society and the law say something does not always make it true. Yes legally nobody under 16 can "consent" to sex, let alone be "willing". Is that reality? You tell me.

Children are very often willing to do all sorts of things that will harm themselves or others, especially if it is presented to them as normal.
The law protects them from themselves as well as others.

The law can be ridiculous at times. For example, an eleven year old can have puberty arrested in preparation for a sex change, but cant have a tattoo.
My view is that they are too young for both.

Come to think of it, I think some adults should be banned from tattoos too.
I know a lady who has a tattoo of a leaf on her neck and she loves it, but unfortunately it looks exactly like a vulva.
Nobody has told her.

I'm not suggesting that the accusations are more likely to be false or true because the accused (now convicted rapists) are pakistani. I'm pointing out that there was more of a reluctance to investigate these crimes because they were asian, the cops didn't wan't to be accused of been racist, particularly recently after a damning documentary a few years ago suggesting that their was instuitionalised racism in the police force. The large number of cases of these type by asian gangs, also points to a culturual problem in muslem societies. They have a very patriachial society where men feel as though they should be able to control women (wearing burkas, not been able to work, drive cars etc.).
Of course false allegations do happen, particularly against high profile "celebrity" cases where people follow up after the original allegation, but their is little to gain from making claims against ordinary members of the public. Days spent in court, risk of been charged if you are found out to be lying and no indication of big compensation pay-outs.

honey!oh sugar sugar. wrote:
I think some adults should be banned from tattoos

By whom - and using what criteria?

The law on consent is the law and it exists for a good reason. Having sex with someone is a big decision which the average under 16 year old is not going to have enough maturity to make. Where I think the current grooming discourse goes wrong is that they fail to understand how groomers manipulate need and desire. Johnathan, as ever, is keen to defend people accused of sex offences because he believes he was a victim of injustice himself. He has a perfect right to his beliefs but I suspect he does not understand the mechanics of grooming from the point of view of the victim. The groomer manipulates the needs and desires of their victim. The fact that the victim 'wants' whatever it is the groomer has to offer in terms of material things or emotional manipulation may make the groomer think their underage victim is 'choosing' the sexual activity that goes along with this. But afterwards (and it may take years) the victim will feel degraded and humiliated by their alleged 'choice' to engage in sexual activity. When you are older you will realise you were used and that you were being controlled by someone who should have known better. If some of the more self-deluded groomers understood this it might stop some abuse. If the authorities understood this instead of believing ridiculous conspiracy theories or believing we all must have been forced at gunpoint, then they might do a better job of working with the youths who are at risk.

Barney wrote:
honey!oh sugar sugar. wrote:
I think some adults should be banned from tattoos

By whom - and using what criteria?





It was VERY CLEARLY a light- hearted comment, Barney!

I think a couple of posts, above, overcomplicate the phenomenon.

These Pakistani grooming gangs tend to operate in economically deprived areas which have a large Pakistani population: Huddersfield, Bradford, Rochdale... Also in these areas are young girls (and boys) from dysfunctional homes, or in very poor standard local authority care, largely free to run wild. Some of these will realise that they can get things they want, like money, cigarettes and drugs by (underage) prostituting themselves. At the time, they find it a fair exchange. Then years later when life has stabilised, they reflect that they wish they hadn't done it and re-cast their experiences as abusive. A small and unfortunate number come into contact with some very nasty characters and are mistreated horribly.


Meanwhile, because of the strong muslim and left wing lobby in local government, police and social services in these areas, the phenomenon isn't investigated with quite the rigour we would expect. To do so would undermine the left wing ideology and violate community solidarity. We're only seeing investigations and prosecutions NOW because the ideology has changed slightly: I Believe Me Too Women trumps Multiculturalism Is Good.


So I think the context in which the grooming gang phenomenon operates is wherever there is poverty and a subversion/corruption of democratic institutions and public services. This holds true in other parts of the world where there are similar problems. Pointing the finger at gang members or former teen tearaways is too late and too useless. Rather than fault and blame, cause and consequence are more practical terms in which to consider the phenomenon. Any genuine and meaningful improvement should come from economic development and reinforcing accountability and good practice in local governments and services.

Some of the victims were driven to remote locations with promises of whatever (cigarettes, food, kebabs, alcohol) and then told that they would be abandoned unless they performed certain sexual acts. This is not prostituting yourself or consenting to the act, it is been forced into sexual acts or be left in very perilous and frightening situations. Many muslims have no respect of western girls and women (how dare you show your face and hair in public!) and thus treat them as objects. This issue needs addressing from moslem leaders and a change in attitude is required.

I'm afraid Robbie the first change in attitude needed is you believing everything you read in the media. Very dodgy truth values our dear media has.

honey!oh sugar sugar. wrote:
Barney wrote:
honey!oh sugar sugar. wrote:
I think some adults should be banned from tattoos

By whom - and using what criteria?





It was VERY CLEARLY a light- hearted comment, Barney!


But tattoos are illegal in a number of countries, like Denmark.

And virtually illegal in Sri Lanka and Japan - where those with tattoos would be very unwelcome in public bathing areas.

UAE countries aren't keen either!

Barney wrote:
honey!oh sugar sugar. wrote:
Barney wrote:
honey!oh sugar sugar. wrote:
I think some adults should be banned from tattoos

By whom - and using what criteria?





It was VERY CLEARLY a light- hearted comment, Barney!


But tattoos are illegal in a number of countries, like Denmark.

And virtually illegal in Sri Lanka and Japan - where those with tattoos would be very unwelcome in public bathing areas.

UAE countries aren't keen either!




Are they really, Barney? You are a mine of information, and I had no idea.
At least my friend with the accidentally unfortunate tattoo had the freedom to do it.

Just travel a lot.

Germany, France and Slovakia have strong penalties for nazi tattoos.

Vietnam and Thailand have them for Buddha related tattoos etc.

Different countries have different rules, even for the ages of recipients.

Many say that for security and identification reasons, a small tattoo (in an obscure place) is a good idea.

Like the US Navy Seals, Special Forces, SAS etc.

the so-called "ring leader" was a Hindu so Not A Muslim at all.

this case seems a lot to do with deprivation and poverty with girls coming from shocking home lives where they are gradually drawn into a lifestyle that is fairly destructive.

The great thing is that you can then sort of re-write your history and absolve yourself of all self blame.

I'm not saying things couldn't have panned out any other way..poverty is a crime in itself which no-one should be a victim of.

The claim police, councils etc "looked the other way" is ridiculous of course as everything in retrospect is much easier to see especially when it's those who were also completely ignorant or not interested in the failings of society take the High Moral Road.

I blame society.

I agree with JK's skepticism. Arguing that sex at a certain age is automatically "abuse" is just retarded. It's like arguing that driving is murder, even when no one has been run over and no one is dead! Also plenty of scope for totally false allegations as well. Whether there might be some truth here and there is besides the point. There might be some truth to Nazi propaganda against Jews, I bet there were a few Jewish murderers of Aryan's, but does that justify killing 6 million Jews of which maybe a hundred or so had committed a few murders? Hardly! In fact, we regard the Nazi's as the villain - quite rightly too - and hence we should regard the UK police as the villains in this case as well.

Anyway, I think the people on here who are making arguments in favor of locking up men for allegedly having sex with underage girls are really conjuring up the argument as an after thought. The reality is that they *want* sex with underage girls to be considered abuse and/or they *want* these allegations to be considered true. That's why their arguments are nonsensical gibberish and it's generally not possible to argue with them - they are not interested in the truth, they are ideologically motivated. Now the question we must ask is, why do they want it to be true that underage sex causes terrible harm and/or that pakistani's are raping white girls?