Barney wrote:
Oriel College, Oxford - funded largely by Cecil Rhodes, often described as the Hitler of Africa - were simply swayed by the money, which still accrues.

Hadn't realised there's a large demonstration ongoing (today; 6pm) in Oxford - to take down Rhodes statue.

Oriel College refused to give into previous protests, as their funding would be seriously affected if the statue disappeared.


It does seem peculiar and perverse that we formally commemorate some slavers - like Rhodes, Penny and Colston - yet rarely mention Francis Drake anymore.

Or even the 200 year trade which funded many of our prestigious institutions and organisations.

As well as some of our distinguished families - still represented in our industries and politics.

Our leading role in the slavery trade - for so long - is a sad reflection on our nation, monarchy and naval past.

However, we are not alone. For example, Belgium's history - in the Congo Free State (later Belgian Congo etc.) - is simply atrocious.

Under Leopold II, ten million perished in the devastation of the Congo - and the proceeds funded the building of Ostend and Brussels, and much more.


Monuments to Leopold (who never visited Africa) are all over Belgium - leaving that nation a bigger clearance problem!

Leopold II, for generations, has been Belgium's hero of heroes - and has now been seriously been outed in Black Lives Matter.

Even though the facts were well known - and ignored, just like ours - because it suited people to just say 'that's all in the past'...

I didn't like seeing that Colston statue being toppled. Too much like those scenes from Iraq or Afghanistan with the blowing up of the buddhas. The Colston statue may not have been of equivalent cultural or artistic value but it's still a work of art and part of history. I wonder if any of the protestors considered that their families may have contained people who made money from slavery and that there was a trickle-down effect with the protestors ultimately benefiting too. Rumour has it that someone in my family was owed compensation for slavery but that the family never claimed it as they disapproved. Not sure what to believe, but there were a couple of programmes on the BBC a couple of years ago about the UK's involvement in slavery and it apparently wasn't just the rich who were involved or benefited.

This was the documentary:
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b063db18

If they want to open up a can of worms then let's boycott Egypt. Slaves built the pyramids. Wasn't Michaelangelo forced to paint the Sistene Chapel ?

What protestors lack these days is focus. This incident should have led to demands that focussed on the police. That's how you get change - through specific, precise, easy to articulate demands for change.

But what do these protestors do? Bizarre scattershot complaints, ranging from statues to comedians to sitcoms to the politics of 60 or a hundred or two hundred years ago, most of them betraying a shocking lack of historical knowledge and understanding, but all largely aired without any criticism because of the fear of being seen to be racist.

It's what happened before with child abuse - from the specific it went all the way to vague allegations about any kind of sexism, and beyond that to just incoherent rantings.

It's driven by a kind of manic sense of self-righteous indignation, where value signallers have an intense burst of energy and then exhaust themselves.

If you really want to change minds and change laws, then define your protest clearly, don't get distracted by extraneous complaints, and concentrate on dealing with those who have the power to change, rather than staggering around in huge groups laughing and joking like it's all some stupid game.

Jo wrote:
I didn't like seeing that Colston statue being toppled. Too much like those scenes from Iraq or Afghanistan with the blowing up of the buddhas. The Colston statue may not have been of equivalent cultural or artistic value but it's still a work of art and part of history. I wonder if any of the protestors considered that their families may have contained people who made money from slavery and that there was a trickle-down effect with the protestors ultimately benefiting too. Rumour has it that someone in my family was owed compensation for slavery but that the family never claimed it as they disapproved. Not sure what to believe, but there were a couple of programmes on the BBC a couple of years ago about the UK's involvement in slavery and it apparently wasn't just the rich who were involved or benefited.

This was the documentary:
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b063db18
I remember Alan Yentob’s interview with Andrea Levy that explored her family history. It was shown around the same time as “The Long Song” in 2018. Imagine how hard it must be for those who find both slaves and slave traders on their family tree to reconcile knowledge of this kind.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bw9d69

There is plenty of slavery TODAY, usually in places now independent from the British Empire that stamped out slavery when it was the ruling power.

If people are bothered about slavery, there's plenty of scope for them to make a real difference - if they were genuinely bothered about slavery.

Look closely. Pulling down a statue doesn't attack slavery in 18th century Jamaica, or present day India. It attacks rule of law, private property rights and civic institutions (that are responsible for decisions about monuments and listed buildings).

Rick wrote:
What protestors lack these days is focus. This incident should have led to demands that focussed on the police. That's how you get change - through specific, precise, easy to articulate demands for change.

But what do these protestors do? Bizarre scattershot complaints, ranging from statues to comedians to sitcoms to the politics of 60 or a hundred or two hundred years ago, most of them betraying a shocking lack of historical knowledge and understanding, but all largely aired without any criticism because of the fear of being seen to be racist.

It's what happened before with child abuse - from the specific it went all the way to vague allegations about any kind of sexism, and beyond that to just incoherent rantings.

It's driven by a kind of manic sense of self-righteous indignation, where value signallers have an intense burst of energy and then exhaust themselves.

If you really want to change minds and change laws, then define your protest clearly, don't get distracted by extraneous complaints, and concentrate on dealing with those who have the power to change, rather than staggering around in huge groups laughing and joking like it's all some stupid game.


If the statue of Churchill is taken down then there be anarchy from both sides. Even Mandela statue will be destroyed. Last thing we need is a global race war.

Green Man wrote:
Rick wrote:
What protestors lack these days is focus. This incident should have led to demands that focussed on the police. That's how you get change - through specific, precise, easy to articulate demands for change.

But what do these protestors do? Bizarre scattershot complaints, ranging from statues to comedians to sitcoms to the politics of 60 or a hundred or two hundred years ago, most of them betraying a shocking lack of historical knowledge and understanding, but all largely aired without any criticism because of the fear of being seen to be racist.

It's what happened before with child abuse - from the specific it went all the way to vague allegations about any kind of sexism, and beyond that to just incoherent rantings.

It's driven by a kind of manic sense of self-righteous indignation, where value signallers have an intense burst of energy and then exhaust themselves.

If you really want to change minds and change laws, then define your protest clearly, don't get distracted by extraneous complaints, and concentrate on dealing with those who have the power to change, rather than staggering around in huge groups laughing and joking like it's all some stupid game.


If the statue of Churchill is taken down then there be anarchy from both sides. Even Mandela statue will be destroyed. Last thing we need is a global race war.

If I try really hard to be offended, as so many are doing, a statue celebrating the terrorist Nelson Mandela is a bit peculiar, in my opinion.

How will they find perfect people that everyone loves to be the replacement statues?
A Saturday night voting show with Simon Cowell?

Honey wrote:
Green Man wrote:
Rick wrote:
What protestors lack these days is focus. This incident should have led to demands that focussed on the police. That's how you get change - through specific, precise, easy to articulate demands for change.

But what do these protestors do? Bizarre scattershot complaints, ranging from statues to comedians to sitcoms to the politics of 60 or a hundred or two hundred years ago, most of them betraying a shocking lack of historical knowledge and understanding, but all largely aired without any criticism because of the fear of being seen to be racist.

It's what happened before with child abuse - from the specific it went all the way to vague allegations about any kind of sexism, and beyond that to just incoherent rantings.

It's driven by a kind of manic sense of self-righteous indignation, where value signallers have an intense burst of energy and then exhaust themselves.

If you really want to change minds and change laws, then define your protest clearly, don't get distracted by extraneous complaints, and concentrate on dealing with those who have the power to change, rather than staggering around in huge groups laughing and joking like it's all some stupid game.


If the statue of Churchill is taken down then there be anarchy from both sides. Even Mandela statue will be destroyed. Last thing we need is a global race war.

If I try really hard to be offended, as so many are doing, a statue celebrating the terrorist Nelson Mandela is a bit peculiar, in my opinion.

How will they find perfect people that everyone loves to be the replacement statues?
A Saturday night voting show with Simon Cowell?

Have no statues of anyone no matter what race or creed. Let them all be removed, BBC should destroy Black and White Minstrels, whilst Hollywood should destroy White Chicks.

Next on the scrutiny list of bad (slavery type) working practices - will be the World Cup in Qatar.

Workers are dying, and there are all types of serious allegations about standards around the huge amount of ongoing work.

FIFA inspectors are visiting regularly.

But recent events/protests will put the spotlight further on a country with few health and safety laws - and experiencing new construction techniques.


And one which has to virtually build a totally new infrastructure (including stadiums) to accommodate the event.

Now some beneficiaries of the slavery trade are having second thoughts on their positions.

Like Greene King, our biggest pub chain - which was founded with slave proceeds. And Lloyds of London which hugely profited.

Even the role of Cecil Rhodes, in Oriel College's past, is to be reassessed - notwithstanding Chris Patten's strencant support for him.


Other institutions are undoubtedly looking in their pasts - pasts they hoped had been forgotten.

Particularly those in Bristol and Liverpool - which were our slave capitals - and where the slavers' names are everywhere...

Barney wrote:
Chris Patten's strencant support

Strencant?

Is that a portmanteau of strenuous and trenchant?

Randall - a typo!


Good to see, though, that someone's reading my incisive and soporific drivel.

I'm all for Civil Unrest.

It's the Age of Aquarius and I foresaw all this coming as I danced on the stage at the opening night of Hair in 1972 with flowers in my hair.

Everything will be exposed and talked about ( anyone who has a close Aquarian friend will know of their infuriating habit of often saying far too much)

Everything.

The problem is it's not always correct as we see in the Sir Jimmy Savile case as we know Jimmy as almost Saint like and once hugged the late Dame Vera Lynn so are they going to say Dame Vera is in the VIP Pedo Cult?

## Auto correct made that The AGE OF AQUARIUMS which is fab!

Were they in The Cult?

Love the pic Hedda - made my day!

Barney wrote:
Now some beneficiaries of the slavery trade are having second thoughts on their positions.

Like Greene King, our biggest pub chain - which was founded with slave proceeds. And Lloyds of London which hugely profited.

Even the role of Cecil Rhodes, in Oriel College's past, is to be reassessed - notwithstanding Chris Patten's strencant support for him.


Other institutions are undoubtedly looking in their pasts - pasts they hoped had been forgotten.

Particularly those in Bristol and Liverpool - which were our slave capitals - and where the slavers' names are everywhere...





Maybe record shops should ban jazz, Rythym and blues and Blues music. All them genres originate from slavery. Maybe knock down the Great Wall of China as well.

Barney wrote:
Next on the scrutiny list of bad (slavery type) working practices - will be the World Cup in Qatar.

Workers are dying, and there are all types of serious allegations about standards around the huge amount of ongoing work.

FIFA inspectors are visiting regularly.

But recent events/protests will put the spotlight further on a country with few health and safety laws - and experiencing new construction techniques.


And one which has to virtually build a totally new infrastructure (including stadiums) to accommodate the event.





Interesting points this guy has made, sadly it's doesn't go with the media's agenda.

mobile.twitter.com/MarkDice/status/1273336286338670593

I've learnt more about the hideous trade of slavery than ever before!

We have really been kept in ignorance.

Now we hear in Australia so many "notable" people were actually slave traders..the practice of "black-birding" in the South Pacific..conning natives into believing they would be handsomely paid to go to Oz and work on plantations..but they became slaves.

Entire sugar industry was built on slavery.

They're on about Captain Cook but I think that's a tad extreme. Afterall he was on a mission from the government and did his job..paying with his life eventually.

As I walked through Sydney's Hyde Park some time ago I notice this statue of Cook

## I've lost the photo but there are some odd ones. Came across one a few weeks ago in the Domain..it was of artist George Washington Lambert who happened to eb the grandfather of The Who manager Kit Lambert.
George Lambert accompanied Rupert's father Sir keith Murdoch to Gallipoli to report on the invasion ( why were we invading Turkey? never done anything to us)

It was there Murdoch got a hatred for the British upper classes which he passed on to Rupert.
George Washington outraged the British Generals as he had a hat with more plumes in them than theirs.