but I must admit the woman seated just behind me in The Upstart Crow coughed all the way through and made me worried I might have caught Covid19. A few days later I was self isolating in bed at the start of my personal lockdown.

That nonexistent disease - trivial and stupid - is absolutely nothing to worry about

Wave 2 will be even less aggressive than the one we're not having now. Media and madmen cause everything.

Even though about 600k are dead, in less than 6 months - and no cure is imminent...

No one has ever said on here Covid 19 doesn't exist Barney; don't be so silly...

Barney is being ironic I think wyot; he or she is well aware that the quantity of deaths, though upsetting for friends and relatives of the dead, as all deaths are, is tiny compared to people dying for dozens of other reasons. They know that more people die from problems caused by flu or the common cold or cancer or road accidents or strokes or heart attacks. And they know the media chooses not to mention this (why kill off a great story?). And governments choose not to enact simple measures to save lives (like banning cigarettes and smoking which would save millions of lives a year) due to tax income.

No, the problem is - how are we going to cope with the real problem (PanicDemic)? And the next time? Far worse epidemics and viruses are on their way which Lockdowns will not solve. They will kill millions. They won't easily be avoided. Incompetent experts, medics, politicians got this SO badly wrong but next time it will be true tragedy.

Yes, I confess to an irony attempt - but simply fail to comprehend how coronavirus could be classed as trivial, by intelligent people.

When 600,000 have died in 6 months - and 7 million have been infected in just 3 countries: Brazil, India and USA.

Record new infections (c250,000) occurred yesterday - and the WHO say this will get worse. With no vaccine likely for 12/18 months.

JK2006 wrote:
[quote] And governments choose not to enact simple measures to save lives (like banning cigarettes and smoking which would save millions of lives a year) due to tax income.

Yes they were woeful in enacting simple measures to save large numbers of those who could have been, failing in the first duty of a state to protect it's citizens.

At the same time they enacted complex and gross measures giving the state unprecedented powers to intervene in one's personal life: Grandparents can't touch their Grandchildren, you can't leave your house for more than an hour, masks must be worn.

None of which has necessarily protected anyone from death, and will have led to more harm and deaths than it has prevented.

Barney can be as ironic (sarcastic?) as he likes as he has been brainwashed by the media and Gov and joined the unthinking herds who are not questioning the negligence of this Government, or the truly scary infringements on our liberty.

But meanwhile serious outcomes to the panicdemic are evident and growing daily...

Read this slowly Barney. Word by word. Covid19 is a trivial virus for most who catch it. 95% - some say 99% - have mild or no symptoms at all. 95% - some say 99% - either don't even know they have got it or get over it (as I think I did) after 4-5 days of bed rest, liquids and paracetamol.

Keep reading - slowly, so as to get every word - the amount of people dying is tiny compared to many other reasons. More than that - the amount of people dying FROM it is even more minuscule. It tends to make the elderly & other vulnerables prone to getting other illnesses. Pneumonia being the main problem. You can get pneumonia in various ways. If you were to remove pneumonia deaths from the "list", also deduct "old age", heart problems, strokes and other cause, some of which may have been provoked by Covid 19; most of which won't have been; you are left with so few deaths in the greater scheme of things that it's hardly worth noticing.

To which MEDIA says "every death is worth..." and more bollocks, truisms and platitudes that gullibles like you believe and repeat.

So, again. Millions die each year from cancer. Millions die each year from road accidents. Millions die each year from heart failure. Millions die each year from Sepsis. Thousands die from Flu or Cold related illnesses. Thousands die from Covid 19 related illnesses. It needs sorting out; treatment, vaccine.

But it doesn't need Governments, backed by the gullibles falling for media hype, over reacting and killing millions by panic responses.

Got that? Not too complex for you? A trivial virus for the vast majority should not be inflated into a global plague. The Emperor has no clothes on.

wyot wrote:
and will have led to more harm and deaths than it has prevented.

But meanwhile serious outcomes to the panicdemic are evident and growing daily.

1. Irony/sarcasm is one thing - bland and unproven assertions are another!

2. Contrastingly - this is blatantly accurate and deeply worrying.


Many of us take media reports on the coronavirus with a pich of salt - but to ignore those of the WHO, would be foolhardy in the extreme.

Right. The government conspiracy that no government wanted...

No government has come out on top with this. All have lost out. Each country has lost thousands upon thousands of tax paying businesses and employee's that they will now need to support as we rebuild.

When global governments who didn't want lockdown need to lock down due to high death rates in a condensed period,however lacklustre those actions are, that speaks louder than anything.

We must remember the figures we now reel off about the number of deaths has the added luxury of being lower than it would have if the world carried on regardless, due to the measures taken that ultimately saved many thousands, if not millions, of lives.

wyot wrote:
[quote]JK2006 wrote:
And governments choose not to enact simple measures to save lives (like banning cigarettes and smoking which would save millions of lives a year) due to tax income.

Yes they were woeful in enacting simple measures to save large numbers of those who could have been, failing in the first duty of a state to protect it's citizens.

At the same time they enacted complex and gross measures giving the state unprecedented powers to intervene in one's personal life: Grandparents can't touch their Grandchildren, you can't leave your house for more than an hour, masks must be worn.

None of which has necessarily protected anyone from death, and will have led to more harm and deaths than it has prevented.

Barney can be as ironic (sarcastic?) as he likes as he has been brainwashed by the media and Gov and joined the unthinking herds who are not questioning the negligence of this Government, or the truly scary infringements on our liberty.

But meanwhile serious outcomes to the panicdemic are evident and growing daily...

We were never restricted to one hour outside.
People were so thrilled to be told what to do that they invented further restrictions for themselves and everyone believed they were true.

But would a more concentrated form of lockdown (care homes; hospitals); greater protection and treatment for the vulnerable; not have saved thousands of lives lost because of wasting time and effort on projects like the White Nightingales? Everywhere Covid19 seems to have a shelf life (for the moment until it resurges as it surely will unless we have a vaccine; just as Flu did). There is STILL no answer as to why the DeathFour (or 5) have so many more deaths per cases. I'm sorry; falling for the media hype has been disastrous.

Stuart Farquhar wrote:
Right.

We must remember the figures we now reel off about the number of deaths has the added luxury of being lower than it would have if the world carried on regardless, due to the measures taken that ultimately saved many thousands, if not millions, of lives.

There is no correlation between lockdown stringency (or even no lockdown like Sweden) and death rates when you compare international responses and morbidity outcomes.

But I should not assume you base your assertion about the millions of happily saved souls on the data available to me; for all I know you have access to a parralel world where no country implemented lockdown, as well as a time travel machine and can prove this statement?

Honey wrote:
[quote]wyot wrote:
[quote]JK2006 wrote:


We were never restricted to one hour outside.
People were so thrilled to be told what to do that they invented further restrictions for themselves and everyone believed they were true.

A collective case of masochism Honey? I think there may be a lot in this and the psychology of lockdown fetishism. Modern life can be complex and relentless; what a relief to be told, better ordered!, to just STOP...

Advice from scientists and medical experts is not media hype. Any one can be a critic after the fact, with the luxury of hindsight. A luxury not available to those dealing with a new virus they are trying to understand the science of from scratch. That's why you have a lock down, then ease and proceed.

You are entitled to your opinion SF as are we. Hindsight is not a luxury. Intelligent hindsight looks at the past and sees the flaws in behaviour. I am personally absolutely convinced the media knowingly hyped the Wuhan epidemic because they always do; every good story is automatically inflated. Likewise everybody fell for the hype to some degree or other. Even I bought an expensive efficient face mask and cans of oxygen (portable) for my bedside. This seemed to be a virus particularly lethal to both the elderly and diabetics and I fitted into both categories.

But I always suspected the reality was far different to the image. Covid19 seemed to be far more infectious than the common cold or flu. But equally far less lethal although it had other aspects not immediately apparent (and only recently starting to be found - the problem with instant gratification, especially when followed by governments).

How to deal with it is a secondary question. Total lockdown? Or concentrated protection and treatment? I favoured a combination of the two - if Lockdown happened immediately a case was seen entering a country, spread could be minimised. But security for care homes, hospitals, prisons and refugee camps were the urgent, immediate vital measures I thought. With equally urgent research into cures & treatment as well as a vaccine.

It appears lockdown too late didn't work at all. As proven in hindsight by the Death Four (or 5) figures compared to everywhere else.
But even where instant lockdown occurred the lethal nature was small. Compared to other causes of death, historical figures tell us this is not generally a deadly virus. Indeed, for most it is a trivial virus.

Media continued to inflate, making the few thousand deaths seem more significant than they were. Governments - totally obedient to media - went along with them; passing laws, clamping down, unthinking of consequences, grabbing the instant gratification of panic.

Experts, knowing nothing, screamed Stop The Spread. As with colds and flu, this is and always was impossible. Just watch the countries with minimal infections like New Zealand, Greece, South Korea.

And just like flu (I suspect seasonal - the Southern Hemisphere is now discovering Covid19 as the winter sets in), it is here to stay, with virtually no or mild symptoms for 99%. And just like flu, they will eventually find a vaccine. And just like flu, another virus will come along in a few years. And just like flu, sadly those of us growing older (how DARE I grow old?) will suffer far worse than the young.

Our bodies are less able to deal with new things (what the fuck is the Internet?). But we also gain wisdom and those of us who can see how media works know exactly what has happened. Sadly the majority, obeying media rules, do not have that ability. They are gullible sheep, God bless them, as they wander towards the slaughterhouse.

Stuart Farquhar wrote:
Advice from scientists and medical experts is not media hype. Any one can be a critic after the fact, with the luxury of hindsight. A luxury not available to those dealing with a new virus they are trying to understand the science of from scratch. That's why you have a lock down, then ease and proceed.

SF I agree 100% but think you are wasting your time trying to argue that point on this forum. Conspiracy theorists seldom change their views. Even if 99% of the available information points in one direction they will seek out the other 1% that supports their blinkered view. These folks slam the experts who will have spent decades studying and researching the subject and will come up with their own view of the science and the statistical data.

JK suffers from the Dunning-Kruger effect and has an agenda to slam and criticise everything “the media” does but never suggests a way the media could be changed or a possible solution to what he seems to believe is a problem. Covid-19 has been a worldwide pandemic so it was always going to be a very big story with widespread reporting in every country.

Wrong way around BB - the story was created before the facts. I have no agenda. I love the media - have been a part of it for 60 years. I know it well; both traditional and social. I reverse the criticism. No conspiracy here. You've been brainwashed. Not for any theoretical reason. No big corporations or big brothers. Simply media exaggerating to make a better story (it's in its nature) and most people - sadly including most governments - obeying the instructions given, were the media image correct.

Why lockdown? Because, if this IS a lethal plague, dangerous to millions, as Ebola would be if it was more infectious, we need to try to Stop The Spread.

I agree with that. I just don't agree with the estimate of the virus. And slowly, as facts surfaces, neither do "the experts". Not any longer.
They see so few deaths (inflated by media in quantity & importance) and are beginning to realise - this is NOT a deadly virus for the majority.

So you disagree with me. Fair enough. You agree with media coverage. Fair enough. You know that there are 10 million cancer deaths a year yet you think Covid19 is a far more dangerous disease, requiring far more autocratic remedies. Fair enough. When I suggest banning smoking would have saved far more lives than Covid lockdowns with far less disruption to society, you disagree. Fair enough. When I point out that Covid19 seems to be ten times less lethal than cancer, you disagree. Fair enough.

But don't describe an "agenda" when there is none. Don't call me a conspiracy theorist when I'm not.

You believe. I don't. I've provided my reasons. Now you explain why I'm wrong. And feel free to continue to vote for those you think have got it dead right (DEAD being the operative word looking at the deaths caused by the Death Four government actions). Clap for the NHS despite the 45,000 deaths in the UK. Obey media instructions and dismiss alternative views as "agendas" or "conspiracy theories". You think I'm mad. I think you're gullible.

JK2006 wrote:
Wrong way around BB - the story was created before the facts.

The media distributes information, some speculative, some factual, some incorrect. I certainly don’t believe everything I read/hear/see via “the media” nor do I disagree with everything that is published. I have an open enquiring mind and my opinions will change and be modified as more information is available. Your position that “the media” is too blame for everything with politicians, and scientists making decisions solely based on “the media”. The story was not created before the facts. The facts were published as they became known and the stories then passed comment on them.

Don't be silly BB - the media is NOT to blame for "everything". Covid19 happened in Wuhan. Media reported it. They just exaggerated it a bit. Politicians, gullibles, experts believed the headline, the tabloid sensation, the exaggerated story. Complexity has no place in 2020 human society. We don't have the time, inclination or power of concentrated examination. Easier to fall for the simplistic slogan. That is my point. Feel free to disagree.

JK you are banging your bizarre Covid Drum yet again and basically you know sod all. Everything you say is speculation backed by not one iota of proof.

You have weaved a pandemic into a media sensation which it is but often media sensations do have validity unless you think media tales during '39 & '49 were sensationalizing Adolf's adventures with Good Stories about Concentration Camps etc.

## that's OK..I know even less.