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Topic History of: I'm not a Trump fan
Max. showing the last 5 posts - (Last post first)
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Randall |
The statue in question is of Robert E Lee. Here's what he said about slavery in a letter to President Franklin Pierce
"There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil. It is idle to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it is a greater evil to the white than to the colored race. While my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more deeply engaged for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, physically, and socially. The painful discipline they are undergoing is necessary for their further instruction as a race, and will prepare them, I hope, for better things."
The latter part reflects feelings at the time that the blacks were uncivilised and that it was the white man's duty to elevate them, particularly through Christianity. In fact, General Lee's letter goes on to recommend emancipation through a more gradual and benign process of Christian influence, rather than "fiery insurrection."
But the Civil War wasn't really about slavery. That was just a propaganda point to create goodies and baddies. Slavery was fast becoming economically unviable due to advances in agricultural technology anyway, and would not have outlasted the Civil War by more than a few years. The real grievance the South had with the North was the change in governmental structure from a decentralised collection of largely autonomous states, to a central authority with power over the states. The latter was a departure from the American founding fathers' concept of the role of central government in the USA, as the South saw it. One must admit that the South had a point. Today's USA has laws abridging freedom of speech, gun control, search and seizure without reasonable cause and denial of due process, so the North started as it meant to go on.
Regarding the recent demonstration, a couple of posters above have put up a straw man about the Right wing protesters being all Nazis. There is a range of views on the political right. Some are
White advocacy - people who encourage and seek to preserve white cultures and look out for the interests of white people. Not dissimilar to other racial advocacy groups.
White nationalism - people who want to live in a wholly or predominantly white community, or even nation. They tend to want to go their own way and just be left alone to organise their society as they wish, rather than having it "enriched" by people who insist they know better. Again, similar views occur with other groups like Israel, Liberia and the Amish.
White supremacy - people who believe the white race is superior to other races. They often cite, quite fairly, the achievements of European Antiquity, the Middle Ages and the Enlightenment as evidence, although how much this was to do with race rather than social structures is debatable. Biological arguments for the superiority of any race are usually based on value judgements rather than objective advantages.
Nazis - even within this group, there is considerable variation. Hermann Göring explained this very well at Nuremberg: there was a range of views among the Nazi party leadership. Modern Nazis are likewise. Some think of Nazism as a cult-like religion and venerate Hitler in a kind of mystical way. Some just like the anti jewish bit and aren't fussed about the rest. Others merely see merit in National Socialism as a way to order the economics and social structure of a society.
Then there are people, not necessarily white, who are uneasy at history being erased and rewritten. This was, as all here doubtless recall, Winston Smith's job at the Ministry of Truth in 1984.
It's very important that all these groups have their say and do their marching and demonstrating. Some only succeed in making themselves look unpleasant or silly. Others highlight valid points. This is a neat thing about freedom of speech: it's self regulating, carrying its own punishments and rewards.
The other side, Antifa, concerns me much more. Their name is a misnomer because they are not anti fascist. They are anti anything that deviates from extremist authoritarian Leftism. Again, there is a range of views among them. Some are nasty thugs who just want a punch up and feel safe doing it in a big crowd. Some are embittered, emotionally damaged people working out their (usually self) hatred in a convenient way. Some hate white people and want to make them suffer: don't worry, it's not racist persecution, it's social justice. Some are genuinely committed communist subversives who will use violence to achieve their goals. And what do we call groups who use violence to achieve a political goal? Yes, terrorists.
So, long story short (too late), I should be the Führer and I'll sort everything out and get the buses and trains running on time. |
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Jo |
andrew wrote:
Hedda do you seriously think everyone who protested against the removal of the status was racist. I mean everyone of them. So people want the statue to remain as a symbol to reminds us racists lost the war.
BBC: Trump defends ‘beautiful’ Civil War statues
Contains a video "What Trump said versus what I saw" by a BBC reporter.
"But relatives of Stonewall Jackson, a Confederate leader Mr Trump mentioned in his Thursday tweets, wrote an open letter** to the mayor of Richmond, Virginia, urging him to remove the statue of their great-great-grandfather and all other Confederate statues in town.
Jack and Warren Christian, Mr Jackson's great-great-grandsons, said removing the statues would "further difficult conversations about racial justice"."
** Includes the following: "Confederate monuments like the Jackson statue were never intended as benign symbols. Rather, they were the clearly articulated artwork of white supremacy. Among many examples, we can see this plainly if we look at the dedication of a Confederate statue at the University of North Carolina, in which a speaker proclaimed that the Confederate soldier “saved the very life of the Anglo-Saxon race in the South.” Disturbingly, he went on to recount a tale of performing the “pleasing duty” of “horse whipping” a black woman in front of federal soldiers. All over the South, this grotesque message is conveyed by similar monuments. As importantly, this message is clear to today’s avowed white supremacists."
If there really were innocent non-racist monument enthusiasts amongst the crowd of white supremacists, they must have been happy to march alongside the racists, which would call into question whether they were in fact not racist. I think this idea of "fine" people was just an absurd invention by Trump, put forward in an attempt to win the argument and retain white supremacist supporters and sympathisers for 2020. |
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honey!oh sugar sugar. |
JK2006 wrote:
Should we approve of the small section of anti racists who used violence? Or should we, like Trump, condemn everyone who uses violence? Ought we to praise terrorists who battle Nazis, bigots, fascists, paedos? Where do we draw the line? Only against those with different views to us? If a paedo army started killing cops, I would be 100% against them.
I dont understand the bit about the paedo army.  |
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andrew |
hedda wrote:
JK2006 wrote:
Well Hedda I bow to your superior knowledge but I would be very surprised if there weren't some fine people on both sides - many equally mistaken on some issues. I know, like and respect some fine people who actually approve of Brexit. Indeed I even know and like (you'll find this hard to accept) some heterosexuals. Although it is easier and simpler to categorise people into categories, in my long life (much longer than you, Hedda) I've found the various shades of grey theory not only correct but even illustrating that some humans have very good parts, very bad parts and mainly middle parts. And this silly storm over a teacup (when there are far worse things Trump has done and will continue to do) simply deflects sensible opinion and may even, God forbid, gain the man some new fans.
trying to compare Brexit with Trump's support for a bunch of Nazi goons who marched down a Charlottesville street screaming "Jews will not replace us" and other Fascist slogans, who carried fearsome weapons to intimidate others, who beat several people to a pulp.,.is bizarre.
The only connection the two have is that arrogant SOB Nigel Farage appears now to have been heavily involved with Julian Assange, who increasingly looks like a Putin go-between, and the Russian funded company that created highly suspect internet memes that used complete falsehoods to so successfully promote the Brexit cause and Trump's campaign on social media.
There are no "fine" people in a bunch of openly murderous thugs who are Nazis. You march with ugly racists . you are one of them
The only "fine" Nazi is a dead Nazi.
## Andrew still needs that interpreter but I assume he is alluding to the fact this pack of hideous scumbags were marching to protest the removal of a statue dedicated to a White Slaver who killed other Americans in the 1000s in order to preserve slavery.
## The fact the Southern states- some which did not even exist during the Civil War and some which were never involved in it, are riddled with statues of White Slavers who killed 10,000s of Americans to preserve slavery has also been ignored.
### The fact the Charlottesville city council has a Jewish Mayor and 3 Jewish councilors - all born in Charlottesville unlike the Fascist scumbags who caused the deaths of 3 people that day, seems to have been ignored by the media.
#### History can be preserved : that's what they have Museums for. Or maybe Andrew thinks a statue of Adolf Hitler should be placed next to Winston Churchill's with the message below "there are fine people on both sides"
You can also visit a Holocaust Museum and get a good overview of history but I doubt you would find Germans would appreciate a statue of Hitler- certainly an historic figure- in the middle of a Munich square when over 5 million died because of his insanity.
Watch this superb Vice film from the day and you get an idea of who these highly dangerous but diseased brain creeps are:
news.vice.com/story/vice-news-tonight-fu...ille-race-and-terror
Hedda do you seriously think everyone who protested against the removal of the status was racist. I mean everyone of them. So people want the statue to remain as a symbol to reminds us racists lost the war.
If you looked at alt left they were macing and throwing newspaper stands and getting up close. If you do that you will get your just desserts. |
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hedda |
JK2006 wrote:
I see even Piers Morgan agrees with you - so how can I complain?
Thank you.
Talk about a back handed compliment !  |
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