IMPORTANT NOTE: You do NOT have to register to read, post, listen or contribute. If you simply wish to remain fully anonymous, you can still contribute.
Topic History of: Steve Moxon : Seeing through the anti-savile hysteria Max. showing the last 5 posts - (Last post first)
Author
Message
bh
I get your drift Chris.
Even from being 13 myself (100 years ago, it seems) I recall the girls from Primary School, turning up at secondary school at 14/15 & most had the brains to be acting like adults, even if they were not.
These days (to me) most 14/15 year old girls, seem to be giggling incoherents, with the attention span of a moth. Not including the ones that end up, with a baby by their 16th Birthday, that always seems to look like Bob Marley's.
Chris Retro
To further subvert the concept of sexual attraction and maturity, teenagers are now - as a rule (though with exceptions of course) - emotionally stunted in comparison to the youth of yesteryear (whether 10 years ago or 40) and behave more like children of 10-13 even when they are long past the age of consent. Whether this is because they spend half their lives on X-Boxes etc or the product of a suspicious over-regulated society quarantining them from adults I'm not sure. This did not used to apply, but it does now - though as "protection" for the beastly males over 18 who risk being labelled "paedophiles" for kissing a 15 year old this could be a godsend.
Of course, this means the context of any historic allegations such as those being thrown around at the moment will be lost as these drones get older and more befuddled - it will be thought that all teenagers were silly little girls when of course in the past they were able to function as young adults in the traditional sense - to attract, to fuck, to converse with and to marry.
Jim
Look, Blackit,
14 or 15 just isn't normal for me. I'm sorry. I like them at around 18 or 19 physically.
But even at 18 or 19 I'd still feel a bit weird being in a relationship with them being as I'm old enough to be their father.
You may say, however, that relationships aren't what we're talking about here. We're talking about mere physical attractiveness. That's fine. Then I would revert to saying I think women are at the peak of their "bloom", as it were, at around 18 or 19.
If instead of "normal" we used something to indicate that it's not completely contrary to nature and totally outrageous then I could be persuaded to go with that.
We can, as you suggest, try to discover some underlying human nature by going back through cultural history in the manner of an anthropologist. We can also infer, as you do, from the theory of evolution by natural selection that we should expect females to become attractive to males when they become fecund.
There remain, however, a few problems with this whole notion of a deeper nature. Firstly, it might turn out that there's no such thing, though it's rather a big topic to get into here. Secondly, even if we accept it, it's still not clear what if anything follows about how we should act from how our nature inclines us to act. Thirdly, I just have a sense that our deeper nature, such as it is, has been buried under multiple layers of cultural evolutionary development leaving us with a more complex self than a merely primal and instinctive one. Finally, sexual desire is surely connected to both the duty of love and the institutions of marriage or the long term relationship in a way that will often return to inform desire itself. All of this conspires to confuse the notion of "normal" and it may even make sense to speak of different norms at different points in history.
Fop these reasons, I think "normal" is putting it a bit strongly, though I would settle for something weaker as already mentioned.
On the topic of jailbait, I have always found the term and the concept a bit vulgar and distasteful, but perhaps that's just my class origins showing through. It's hard for a well-trained member of the upper class to completely let himself go. Besides, what would the footman think! ~
I did watch the video all the way through. It was both fun and anthropologically interesting.
Best Wishes,
Jim
Blackit
Jim wrote: "One woman is claiming that Savile's hand up her skirt when on air in a TOTP filming when she was a teenager has resulted in her subsequent broken marriage, yet there is nothing apparent in the video that she was even upset at the time. Such is the ludicrosity of the cases springing to light."
That's about the best two sentence reprise of the incident that I've seen, but "ludicrosity"? Oh dear. Consider "ludicrous nature".
"Savile has become an emblem for a cultural hatred of the male."
I think this point is important because it makes the strongly felt but not easy to articulate connection between gender issues and the Savile case.
I found the article very refreshing and about the best piece on the topic so far. Thanks again for posting. One line I'm not sure about is:
"If the girls Savile preferred indeed were aged fifteen or fourteen, given the contemporary reality of the age of sexual maturity out of childhood, then sexual attraction to girls at these ages is normal."
"Normal" doesn't seem quite right here.
He's perfectly entitled to use the word 'normal' in the context of the article's message.
It is 'normal' to find 14 and 15 year old post-pubescent girls sexually attractive - let's be honest here.
Society might have deemed it culturally abnormal, and legally defined any pursuit of that attraction to be criminal, but it is normal in the sense that no human society anywhere on Earth save for our own for the last decade or less would even have disputed it. That was the average age of marriage for about...99.9% of human existance. It cannot by definition be biologically abnormal for men to find females several years into fertility sexually attractive, otherwise the human race would have been extinguished many thousands of years ago and we wouldn't be here to discuss it. This is why African tribal leaders have their harems stuffed with girls of that age, and why pop stars and other alpha males in an era of sexual licentiousness will chase girls (or boys) of those tender ages.
You are familiar with the term 'jailbait'?
Jim
"One woman is claiming that Savile's hand up her skirt when on air in a TOTP filming when she was a teenager has resulted in her subsequent broken marriage, yet there is nothing apparent in the video that she was even upset at the time. Such is the ludicrosity of the cases springing to light."
That's about the best two sentence reprise of the incident that I've seen, but "ludicrosity"? Oh dear. Consider "ludicrous nature".
"Savile has become an emblem for a cultural hatred of the male."
I think this point is important because it makes the strongly felt but not easy to articulate connection between gender issues and the Savile case.
I found the article very refreshing and about the best piece on the topic so far. Thanks again for posting. One line I'm not sure about is:
"If the girls Savile preferred indeed were aged fifteen or fourteen, given the contemporary reality of the age of sexual maturity out of childhood, then sexual attraction to girls at these ages is normal."
Forums 
~