www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2525792...ll-year-old-boy.html

'A cannabis user who murdered his 84-year-old grandmother, stabbing her 50 times as she lay in her bed, and then attempted to kill a nine-year-old boy, has been sentenced to life in prison.

A judge today told Nathaniel Flynn, 27, that he will face at least 24 years behind bars as he passed a life sentence at Bradford Crown Court.'

Compare this to a very topical sentencing today.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2525722...rimes-mega-lolz.html

Not condoning either crime,but how can it be argued that attempted rape is worse than premeditated murder?
Watkins got 29 years,plus 6 on special license afterwards.

Pattaya wrote:
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2525792...ll-year-old-boy.html

'A cannabis user who murdered his 84-year-old grandmother, stabbing her 50 times as she lay in her bed, and then attempted to kill a nine-year-old boy, has been sentenced to life in prison.

A judge today told Nathaniel Flynn, 27, that he will face at least 24 years behind bars as he passed a life sentence at Bradford Crown Court.'

Compare this to a very topical sentencing today.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2525722...rimes-mega-lolz.html

Not condoning either crime,but how can it be argued that attempted rape is worse than premeditated murder?
Watkins got 29 years,plus 6 on special license afterwards.

Ah, but you see the "cannabis user" killed someone FIFTY TIMES according to the Mail headline.

"Cannabis user jailed for 24 years for stabbing his grandmother to death 50 times in bed ‘because she got on his nerves’ and then trying to kill nine-year-old"

Pattaya wrote:
Not condoning either crime,but how can it be argued that attempted rape is worse than premeditated murder?

Quite right.
The minimum sentence for murder should always be higher than that for any other crime.

"...murder, massacres and genocide are merely secondary..."

Poor old Tosspot says 'this case will stay with me forever'
I bet it will - and every time it does, he will get a hard-on.
Christmas came a week early for The Paedofinder General - so busy was Mark frothing at the mouth about a 'real' depraved idiot, he forgot to mention his favourite 'unconvicted corpse'

Whilst people are gasping about two skanky druggies & and the T4 Aleister Crowley, Judge Fudge playing to the hysterical masses made a series of legal assumptions, hence the remarkable sentence.
Serious question though - given that 'rape' of an infant could be as easy as touching it (certainly no force or 'serious' penetration required) - how would one seriously 'attempt' and not succeed?

Chris Retro wrote:
"...murder, massacres and genocide are merely secondary..."

Poor old Tosspot says 'this case will stay with me forever'
I bet it will - and every time it does, he will get a hard-on.
Christmas came a week early for The Paedofinder General - so busy was Mark frothing at the mouth about a 'real' depraved idiot, he forgot to mention his favourite 'unconvicted corpse'

Whilst people are gasping about two skanky druggies & and the T4 Aleister Crowley, Judge Fudge playing to the hysterical masses made a series of legal assumptions, hence the remarkable sentence.
Serious question though - given that 'rape' of an infant could be as easy as touching it (certainly no force or 'serious' penetration required) - how would one seriously 'attempt' and not succeed?



Sorry to be graphic but I think it is because the baby was tiny. The judge said there was "little or no difference"

It annoys me that the mothers are portrayed as victims of him, and referred to as "obsessed fans" rather than child abusers, and I don't know what the police were thinking when they gave him bail after seeing a video of him attacking a child.

This case begs a lot of questions - hence why the silence is indeed deafening.
I can't help but see it as all 'Nathan Barley taken a step too far'

It seems to be a rather extreme example of 'chickens coming home to roost' - in terms of it being a product of the 'MEGA LOLZ' society that has been brewing whilst the tabloids, the police, and the likes of Tosspot, have been demonising stars of yesteryear. If you pardon the pun, those babies, and the whole situation, are [i]their[i] babies. They want this 'dumbed down' population who aren't capable of making decent decisions or knowing themselves what is right and what is wrong - well, they've got it now.

The media has the ultimate culpability here - no-one want another senseless witch hunt but Watkins' ex Fearne Cotton is of course a regular on Celebrity Juice (bear in mind the other team captain Holly Willougbooby has been shedding crocodile tears with Tosspot on daytime ITV). She has remained mute on the situation (fair enough, she's an airhead), and allowed to do so - but therein exposes the real deal - why, when they media are poking and cajoling any and everyone to slag off the very dead and very innocent Jimmy Savile and trying to get shit to stick, why when something has happened - nay, flourished - under their own watch 'in clear sight' has everyone gone quiet? Watkins obviously didn't start out "an offender" and he's nearly as old as me - so, correct me if I'm wrong, this 'monster' seems to be a 'Frankenstein's Monster' and the 'laboratory' the NME/Nu-Metal/T4/R1 media scene. Hence the deafening silence.


What the masses won't see - or if they can, they won't want to accept - is the lack of moral compass witnessed in the Watkins case is symptomatic of a wider problem, and it's a wider problem borne of the feckless *shits 'n' giggles' celebrity-worshipping, scripture-tattooed generation who indulge in widespread recreational substance abuse en masse.
I worked with a bunch of mainly 18-23 year old's last year, and what I saw shocked me - no they don't stagger about during the day with needles in their arms, but with few exceptions every weekend was a lost weekend - and it's that environment of mindless excess we saw exposed here.
It is quite a hard thing to grasp until you have seen it with thine own eyes. Add into this mix the amount of young children borne unto clueless single mothers in this environment.
I anticipate quite an epidemic of similar-ish cases (maybe not as extreme but along similar lines) which will all be dealt with via long prison sentences, as well many more casualties of this lifestyle (mental problems, health issues) by their mid-late 30's.

They're not building "SuperJails" for nothing....

And for all this talk of 'child protection' I haven't seen one mention of educating the young and impressionable on the perils of recreational drug use, or responsibility when 'making images' - funny that, eh... (well, it's not funny - it's horrible).

Nothing about prevention - all about retribution. And so it will go on. All very depressing.

It's not just one attempted rape, he was also found with hundreds of paedo films, many of which he appeared in. There was also the manipulation of mothers and other abuses of young children. He posed

robbiex wrote:
It's not just one attempted rape, he was also found with hundreds of paedo films, many of which he appeared in. There was also the manipulation of mothers and other abuses of young children. He posed

He still didn't stab his granny 50 times Robbie!
We will never know exactly what happened as the real evidence was never put up to scrutiny.

a complex case and I cannot possibly know what was happening in this bloke's mind...but..

is it wrong to say that in a case like this..the victims / babies will suffer no ill effects as are incapable of holding memory, unlike say a 4/5/7/8 year old child.

eg : babies cannot recall a physical slashing of their body- circumcision.

hedda wrote:
a complex case and I cannot possibly know what was happening in this bloke's mind...but..

is it wrong to say that in a case like this..the victims / babies will suffer no ill effects as are incapable of holding memory, unlike say a 4/5/7/8 year old child.

eg : babies cannot recall a physical slashing of their body- circumcision.

Wit circumcision or a heel prick or vaccination they are in a loving family and handed straight back to their mother to be comforted.
In this case it seems that the person who should have been comforting him was holding him down while he was violated.

It is known that painful and traumatic incidents have a very long lasting effect on the child's development, and abuse has a greater effect than the old fashioned style of hospital treatment when parents were kept away so the neglect and cold parenting that sometimes leads to abuse must be a big factor too.

In my opinion the practice of keeping adopted children in regular contact with their natural parents makes the situation worse for many. (They wont agree to adoption unless you are willing to facilitate regular meetings and post) Adopted parents are just glorified babysitters, the children belong nowhere and are constantly reminded of the abuse or neglect.
We were better off before everyone was obsessed with revealing the whole truth. There some things people are better off not knowing.

honey!oh sugar sugar. wrote:
hedda wrote:
a complex case and I cannot possibly know what was happening in this bloke's mind...but..

is it wrong to say that in a case like this..the victims / babies will suffer no ill effects as are incapable of holding memory, unlike say a 4/5/7/8 year old child.

eg : babies cannot recall a physical slashing of their body- circumcision.

Wit circumcision or a heel prick or vaccination they are in a loving family and handed straight back to their mother to be comforted.
In this case it seems that the person who should have been comforting him was holding him down while he was violated.



must be why babies scream when it happens. And I'm not sure of the research that shows babies do or do not remember pain. Was their pain worse than say, when a 6 inch nail went through my foot (real story) as a 5 year old and remained there for several hours ?

I don't know the facts of this particular case- I do know everything is exagerated in a court case and because the perp pleaded guilty we won't hear the facts.

But one thing is happening already with faux experts like MWT calling it " a horror I will live with for the rest of his life"...presumably more horrible than say Afghan or Iraq families who see their loved ones blown to smithereens or simply maimed.

A history is being created and a life-long scenario is being laid out for the victims who will know why their mothers went to jail :

" your life is now ruined for all time- there is no recovery- the vilest, most hideous unimaginable thing happened to you as a child and you cannot, will not be allowed to recover from this hideous thing because we will remind you from time to time as we need to sell newspapers full of hideous stories to placate the vicarious taste of the British public and whenever Tosspot needs to produce another TV sensation"

The thing that strikes me is that this whole awful case is showing us the 'modern media' with it's trousers down - and yet it's 'business as usual' for all concerned.
It's another 'rock & roll suicide' but one showing the real horror of the 21st Century in it's all idiotic twisted immoral extreme.
I don't pretend to be an expert in 'nu-metal' or any of the needless tribal sub-genres but this seems to be the deal here: 'band of brothers' form band, all of whom class themselves as 'straight-edge' - that is they don't do alcohol, tobacco, drugs or promiscuity. Lead singer is an intelligent & articulate chap. Band are successful. America calls, they engage in a lengthy tour there in 2006/2007. Singer starts said tour sober, by the end he's taking crack, crystal meth & any substance he can lay his hands on and travelling separately to band from thereon. That should have set alarm bells ringing within the industry, but as said industry has usefully compartmentalised 'youth bands' the over-30s music fans remain blissfully ignorant, the 'youth' media just think it's 'MEGA LOLZ'.
Said singer then goes to huge extremes including graphic gay sex (even though he isn't) - his band are horrified, everyone else encourages it. Us lot just don't hear about it even though by now Lostprophets are a million-selling 'mainstream' act. Singer then continues to push the boundaries until, in an extreme society, he 'naturally' (naturally to someone suffering from drug-induced psychosis & delusions) starts to go 'too far'.
It seems no lessons have been learned from past casualties at all - we despair of the environment which destroyed the likes of Hendrix, Moon, Morrison, Jones, Joplin, Vicious etc but the media, no less, watched this particular circus roll into town to make 'em all 'ROFL'. Going from 'straight edge' intellect to attention-seeking rock fuckmaster was applauded & encouraged when alarm bells should have been ringing, so if that's all groovy why wouldn't said drug abuser continue to push the boundaries - clear that it 'entertains', that he's fucked himself up and no-one gives a toss for anything other than 'MEGA LOLZ'. Even now, we are supposed to look at it as if the drug abuse is some kind of norm and he himself was just a born 'wrong 'un'. No-one actually gives a flying fuck. They want 'entertaining' no matter what the cost.
We also have a nice clear view of media hypocrisy in full swing - it's totally 'wrong' of anyone to mention Fearne Cotton or Alexa Chung or Keith Lemon etc etc as 'they weren't to know' and the party must go on. There's no talk of 'Operation Fucktard' to "investigate" Watkins, Watkins & Others, & Others. Oh no no no. But it's fine to condemn & target old men on the grounds of 40 year old tittle-tattle and set up a bogus police operation.
Indeed, wasn't this all escalating whilst fingers were being pointed at dead men? Tosspot showing his crass & incorrect shockumentaries whilst Ian & Keith were getting pissed in the ITV Green Room? No talk of an 'ITV Paedo Ring' though is there?

I'm not sure about this Chris. As you know (from my song Plead Guilty) I'm worried by the turn justice has taken. Police, CPS and media all combine to prosecute and condemn "good stories" and sometimes things are not quite as they seem. IMAGE - good and bad - means a lot in Celebrity World... a lot of fake mischief appears to go on, whether it be "bad" rappers getting police records for "mother-fucking" violence involving knives, tattoos and gangsterism, or "bad" rockers doing the punk/goth thing and committing deeds condemned by all right thinking establishment mores. These days, thanks to Photoshop, online skills and talents, Twitter, Facebook, You Tube and the other sites, you can construct and create virtually anything. What is real and what is image? Who knows?

Oh for those happy, cleaner, more straight forward days when the ultimate evil was spitting or saying FUCK on Prime Time TV!

This article of faux-journalism kinda says it all

"once a hero, he is now a monster" - really? People are neither 'heroes' nor 'monsters' and it's that infantile mindset that 'feeds the beast'. Crack & Meth tend to scatter a moral compass far & wide as it is, what kind of Idiot Bus is everybody on?
leeds.tab.co.uk/2013/11/27/spare-a-thoug...se-lostprophets-fan/

robbiex wrote:
It's not just one attempted rape, he was also found with hundreds of paedo films, many of which he appeared in. There was also the manipulation of mothers and other abuses of young children. He posed

I dont think it is possible to "manipulate" a mother into harming her child.
Some women are child abusers. Maybe the thought is too revolting to accept and we need to blame others?

I am also wondering about drugs. Is it really possible that heavy use can twist someone's mind to this extent? Or does it exacerbate a mental condition? (Or does the mental condition lead to drug abuse?)

hedda wrote:
honey!oh sugar sugar. wrote:
hedda wrote:
a complex case and I cannot possibly know what was happening in this bloke's mind...but..

is it wrong to say that in a case like this..the victims / babies will suffer no ill effects as are incapable of holding memory, unlike say a 4/5/7/8 year old child.

eg : babies cannot recall a physical slashing of their body- circumcision.

Wit circumcision or a heel prick or vaccination they are in a loving family and handed straight back to their mother to be comforted.
In this case it seems that the person who should have been comforting him was holding him down while he was violated.



must be why babies scream when it happens. And I'm not sure of the research that shows babies do or do not remember pain. Was their pain worse than say, when a 6 inch nail went through my foot (real story) as a 5 year old and remained there for several hours ?

I don't know the facts of this particular case- I do know everything is exagerated in a court case and because the perp pleaded guilty we won't hear the facts.

But one thing is happening already with faux experts like MWT calling it " a horror I will live with for the rest of his life"...presumably more horrible than say Afghan or Iraq families who see their loved ones blown to smithereens or simply maimed.

A history is being created and a life-long scenario is being laid out for the victims who will know why their mothers went to jail :

" your life is now ruined for all time- there is no recovery- the vilest, most hideous unimaginable thing happened to you as a child and you cannot, will not be allowed to recover from this hideous thing because we will remind you from time to time as we need to sell newspapers full of hideous stories to placate the vicarious taste of the British public and whenever Tosspot needs to produce another TV sensation"


Until fairly recently they didn't use anesthetic on small babies in the belief that their perception of the pain was different and that they would forget.
I think the most extensive research is from the Johns Hopkins university/hospital.

Apparently the poor little chap who was attacked is in foster care.
I would have put him straight up for adoption and burned the records, because I am sure the process of being fostered for over a year and then (presumably?) taken away for adoption will exacerbate the harm already done.

honey!oh sugar sugar. wrote:
robbiex wrote:
It's not just one attempted rape, he was also found with hundreds of paedo films, many of which he appeared in. There was also the manipulation of mothers and other abuses of young children. He posed

I dont think it is possible to "manipulate" a mother into harming her child.
Some women are child abusers. Maybe the thought is too revolting to accept and we need to blame others?

I am also wondering about drugs. Is it really possible that heavy use can twist someone's mind to this extent? Or does it exacerbate a mental condition? (Or does the mental condition lead to drug abuse?)

Crack Cocaine, Crystal Meth and other such substances can indeed induce serious mental illness - a wide variety of problems too. It's only relatively recently they have been 'accepted', and this seems to be due to the Americanisation of society, - as far as side effects go they are grim. A 'moral compass' is usually the first thing to go for a burton. If there was any kind of responsible way of taking stock of the situation it should be, first and foremost, educating the young about these highly addictive substances. These things are on a whole new level to the popular recreational drugs of the 70s & 80s.
Which isn't to condone anything Watkins & co did or did not do - but unless the focus is on the problem then stuff *like this* will happen. If you expect reason, decency or morality from someone addicted to meth, crack & smack then you expect too much. Where is this shit coming from, and why do people think it's ok to get completely annihilated to such a degree? Another point I'm making is thus: lots of people working in that side of the media knew his choice of drugs, his LA porn connections and his popularity/promiscurity with female fans. It was all a big massive laugh - oh they never thought he'd do *that* - but what the hell did they expect? Why was it 'ok' to watch someone go from being articulate & sober to a drugged up moron?

Chris Retro wrote:
honey!oh sugar sugar. wrote:
robbiex wrote:
It's not just one attempted rape, he was also found with hundreds of paedo films, many of which he appeared in. There was also the manipulation of mothers and other abuses of young children. He posed

I dont think it is possible to "manipulate" a mother into harming her child.
Some women are child abusers. Maybe the thought is too revolting to accept and we need to blame others?

I am also wondering about drugs. Is it really possible that heavy use can twist someone's mind to this extent? Or does it exacerbate a mental condition? (Or does the mental condition lead to drug abuse?)

Crack Cocaine, Crystal Meth and other such substances can indeed induce serious mental illness - a wide variety of problems too. It's only relatively recently they have been 'accepted', and this seems to be due to the Americanisation of society, - as far as side effects go they are grim. A 'moral compass' is usually the first thing to go for a burton. If there was any kind of responsible way of taking stock of the situation it should be, first and foremost, educating the young about these highly addictive substances. These things are on a whole new level to the popular recreational drugs of the 70s & 80s.
Which isn't to condone anything Watkins & co did or did not do - but unless the focus is on the problem then stuff *like this* will happen. If you expect reason, decency or morality from someone addicted to meth, crack & smack then you expect too much. Where is this shit coming from, and why do people think it's ok to get completely annihilated to such a degree? Another point I'm making is thus: lots of people working in that side of the media knew his choice of drugs, his LA porn connections and his popularity/promiscurity with female fans. It was all a big massive laugh - oh they never thought he'd do *that* - but what the hell did they expect? Why was it 'ok' to watch someone go from being articulate & sober to a drugged up moron?

Thanks for the info, Chris. The funny thing is,a few years ago I went on a "drug awareness" course for people who work with "youth" and nothing was mentioned about the effect on mental health, and it is something we need to know about.

I wonder how his friends and family could have helped? It is very difficult to get someone treatment for drug abuse (even if they want it) and near impossible to get any sort of help for someone with mental health issues.

It is a very sad story. I hope Ian Watkins gets whatever help he needs.