hedda wrote:

I don't like Blair nor do millions of people but he still has extraordinary support within Labour..

Hardly surprising as he saved them from Kinnock and Michael Foot !

Only by pretending to be Conservative did they win 3 elections in a row ! (then the loonies forced him out)

# ITK owes me several expensive lunches. Someone make him send me a large cheque or I'll send my debt collector White Dee around to see him and she'll tell everyone in his street she is a god pal of ITK's and from the local Conservative party office.


What will she do? - sit on me?

We have ways to protect ourselves here, hedda !
You know that film "Wicker Man"?
There are still parts of Derbyshire that think it was a documentary !

(she should burn well - with all that blubber)

JK2006 wrote:
Blair makes great sense and is quite right to say this. And I reckon the majority in the UK agree with him.

So you don't think there should have been a referendum last year but are in favour of a second one. Is this because you disagreed with the result rather than because 'morons' shouldn't be allowed to make a decision on a matter that affects them?

No there should never have been a referendum in the first place.

JK2006 wrote:
No there should never have been a referendum in the first place.

Would be inclined to agree...but we are where we are.

The problem with holding a second referedum (from a Remain perspective) even just tactically and optically is that the Remainers will get accused of the old EU trick (as seen in Denmark and Ireland) if you don't like the result the first time, make the proles vote again!

I am a Remainer, but there's a hugely offputting elitist vibe to elements of the EU project. I can certainly understand why people voted for Brexit.

STRATEGY wrote:
JK2006 wrote:
Blair makes great sense and is quite right to say this. And I reckon the majority in the UK agree with him.

So you don't think there should have been a referendum last year but are in favour of a second one. Is this because you disagreed with the result rather than because 'morons' shouldn't be allowed to make a decision on a matter that affects them?

even if there was a referendum it was an "advisory" one and Cameron really fucked the country by claiming it should be acted upon.

When people give advice that's all it is but when a campaign of utter lies is conducted to deliberately influence that referendum it is a complete perversion of Democracy.

The fact politicians (including Corbyn) now act upon faulty advice is an even further perversion of Democracy.

Nothing was explained about the real affects of quitting the EU rather a bizarre case was built up about some vague notion of "sovereignty" accompanied by outlandish fabrications (the NHS £350M was just one of 100s).

It is criminal to act upon such falsehoods : this is no different to the Brexit Mob claiming that if the lemmings walk off a cliff nothing will happen and a net will catch them.

The hyperventilating, vicious attacks and more outrageous lies told about those who brought the High Court case to establish whether Parliament has sovereignty, with those Brexit MPs bizarrely joining in the attacks upon those who claimed they were the ultimate arbiters demonstrates that it looks like Democracy has reached it's use-by date.

Add Donald Trump (with his nuclear fascination and the ability to send a few missiles off) into the mix and we are headed into unknown territory led by ignorant and malicious fools.

Is it the End Of Civilization as We Know It? Could be, nothing lasts forever.

tdf wrote:

I am a Remainer, but there's a hugely offputting elitist vibe to elements of the EU project. I can certainly understand why people voted for Brexit.

Possibly ... but the vast majority of Brexiteers didn't know or understand that !

They just thought that if we get rid of Johnny Foreigner there will be more dole money for me !

Completely oblivious to the fact the NHS would shut down / prices would rocket and they would probably starve ! (and of course, after having "made the decision" - the wrong decision ! - it would all be the government's fault !)

Lots of tired caricatures going on here.

As the son of a (German) immigrant, and very pro-European background, I voted to leave the EU.

Not because I hate Johnny Foreigner, or migrant workers, or refugees. I voted to leave because I am a democrat, and the EU has failed to democratise itself.

When it started out, a small group of states controlled policy, with the European Parliament as a nascent vehicle to control the executive. The EU commissioners and foreign heads are not appointed by the people, and cannot be recalled. They fail the basic test on democratic accountability.

The Parliament has not grown in power or authority, and the number of states has grown. So we had the ridiculous position recently when the Walloons potentially held up an EU trade deal with Canada. The structure is unwieldy, and reminiscent of Poland in the 17th century when they had to have unanimity on everything, and decided upon nothing.

The EU has also grown the Euro zone too quickly, which has resulted in the grotesque spectacle of punishing the poor in Greece for the mistakes of the Eurocrats - everyone knew what the Greek economy was like.

What I find offensive is the labelling of leavers as ignorant, or racist or xenophobic. The irony of this is that the true picture is that it is Remainers who are seemingly obsessed with this White European club.

Opening our doors to the world will mean a richer society, as workers fill vacancies from Indonesia, South America, and Africa. Trade with these regions may easily result in cheap imports where we want them.

Look to Africa as an example - China invests heavily there to set up factories and industries to undercut their own already cheap labour force. Europe is signally absent, as it cannot react quickly.

What I guess I'm trying to get off my chest in a rambling way is that there needs to be respect for others views, and now that the decision has been made, it is in everyones interests to seek the positive opportunities.

MT wrote:
What I guess I'm trying to get off my chest in a rambling way is that there needs to be respect for others views, and now that the decision has been made, it is in everyones interests to seek the positive opportunities.

WHY should we respect others views - when they will do us damage ?

You have every right to damage yourself - but no right at all to inflict damage on me
(esp when I know you will moan about it later - but accept NO responsibility).

MT wrote:
The EU commissioners and foreign heads are not appointed by the people, and cannot be recalled.Like government ministers, European commissioners are appointed by their national governments, which are accountable to the people just as heads of government are. EU commissioners can be recalled.

"In March 2008, Commissioner Kyprianou left the Commission following presidential elections in Cyprus to become his home country's new foreign minister. He was replaced by Androula Vassiliou who was approved by Parliament on 9 April. Kyprianou was followed by Franco Frattini on 23 April 2008 following elections in Italy when he was recalled to serve as foreign minister of Italy."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barroso_Commission

hedda wrote:

The hyperventilating, vicious attacks and more outrageous lies told about those who brought the High Court case to establish whether Parliament has sovereignty, with those Brexit MPs bizarrely joining in the attacks upon those who claimed they were the ultimate arbiters demonstrates that it looks like Democracy has reached it's use-by date.
[/quote]

The right wing media attacks against those who brought the High Court case and the judges who ruled on it are indeed contemptible extremely troubling. They'd be troubling even if it wasn't for the fact that a pro-Remain MP was brutally murdered just last year. The first political assassination to occur in Britain since PIRA murdered Ian Gow in 1990.

Jo - the point about recalling commissioners etc is that it is Nationally based, not EU wide. If the EU had gone for a true European wide democracy, there would be true accountability. Unfortunately the United States of Europe is not the chosen path, and instead we have this shambles of an organisation.

I am quite happy with peoples democracy, not with a collection of states.


In the Know - it is yet to be seen whether there will be any "damage". Your assertions about what I will do in future (moan and accept no responsibility) are incorrect, so maybe - just maybe - your assertions about the consequences of leaving the EU are also wrong. I prefer to believe that you do not really believe you hold the monopoly on truth.

I truly believe the opportunities to be genuinely internationalist are there. Instead of the huddling together round the camp-fire of global warming of fearful white Europeans, we can (should) embrace the world, and be a positive force in the world.

The civilised world extends beyond the ghetto of Europe to Indonesia, India, South America, Africa, and so on and so on. We have much to learn from our brothers and sisters from across the continents of the world, and mutually beneficial relations are there to be made.

(Of course, we have to have a government that has the imagination to grab hold of the opportunity, which I cannot guarantee!)

The economic future for the UK is secure outside the EU - historically the union with Europe is an aberration - however I prefer to look beyond the profit/loss equation for the UK, as there are greater issues threatening the world, and to not be hamstrung by the EU, and having the opportunity to be more effective via the UN, is one we should embrace.

Hopeless optimist? Perhaps.

But the EU is a dead end, a missed opportunity stifled by nationalistic self interest to become an inward looking and self destructive project. If it were recoverable, I would have voted Remain. Sadly, I could not in all conscience do that.