hedda wrote:
"you will be paid compensation and you do not have to make a police report..but if you do the Church will also fully suppoort you..but if you don't you will be supported and compensated."


Does your fixation with Pell (he is only one of thousands accused) prevent you from seeing - from this statement - that he and the RCC would much prefer incidents not to be reported?

"You will be compensated anyway; so what's the point?" - is his flawed mantra. Clearly and simply to encourage victims, and their families, not to involve the police and legal system.

Because of this strategy, condoned by the Vatican, convictions - like Adelaide Wilson's - have been rare, with many cases unreported.

Why not have all alleged (of child abuse) clerics subjected to due process? Just like all other Australian citizens.

go away.

You have learned from the Derbyshire poster.

When incapable of answering the pertinent questions, ignore them.

And resort to ridicule and/or humour.


Sadly you believe that Pell (who may well be innocent) is a victim.

When he is, at the very least, a senior employee of a dangerous cult.

That ignored ongoing child sex abuse - until forced to admit it.



www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/...n-australia-revealed

Read what you are attempting to defend.

Hundreds of countries have similar experiences to recount.

Hundreds of dioceses*



Now there's Chile - where Pope Francis now admits he made 'serious mistakes'.


www.npr.org/2018/06/14/619842519/chilean-police


Although - as usual - the mistakes were only admitted after evidence was produced from outside the church, following blanket denials from Francis.

'Not a shred of evidence' - he said, earlier this year. He has changed his tune since the Chilean Police raided RCC offices!

Barney wrote:
You have learned from the Derbyshire poster.

When incapable of answering the pertinent questions, ignore them.

And resort to ridicule and/or humour.


Sadly you believe that Pell (who may well be innocent) is a victim.

When he is, at the very least, a senior employee of a dangerous cult.

That ignored ongoing child sex abuse - until forced to admit it.



www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/...n-australia-revealed

Read what you are attempting to defend.

Hundreds of countries have similar experiences to recount.

www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/...n-australia-revealed

Headlines of article reads the key results from Royal Commission as

"Royal commission into institutional responses to child sexual abuse
4,444 victims: extent of abuse in Catholic church in Australia revealed

37% of all private sessions royal commission held with survivors related to the Catholic church
The average age of alleged victims was 10.5 for girls and just over 11.5 for boys
In one order 40% of religious brothers are believed to have abused children"
My question is simply how "reliable was the source" of the information. How many witnesses speaking to the commission that the researcher could be sure of the information.

Once again I shall highlight the importance of source information. If the participants accepted at the hearings were only those who were named in historical documents of the church of the few sad cases where clearly for a period of time an area had a notable offender and thus for whatever reason documented the situation gives the researcher something to work with. Otherwise you have many stories that may or may not be true. Maybe true to a decree. May even be worst.

If any research project on any subject does not commence with well documented source material then the results are meaningless as to the real extend of a problem as in this Australian priest case. I have read lots on UK cases and even written three books simply because many lives were needlessly destroyed by stupid behavior in response to real crimes that do happen and reaction was to fabricate evidence rather than solve the actual crimes. In Operation Yewtree already mentioned one repeat offender well known was convicted. Not even sure he was part of Yewtree possibly an off shoot. But the rest accused, even those later convicted were almost all smoke. Even Max Clifford was convicted only on stories that appeared to be fantasies and the jury chose the stories they liked.

So please drop statistics created by politically created inquiries unless you can show they ensured excellent sources of information not just stories.

We in the UK have over the last couple years seen a number of exposed cases of criminal behaviour by the justice system in their conduct. Media highlighted a little but unfortunately truth is not what the public and leaders seem to want.

Barney you are welcome to believe the report as reliable and I am happy to accept it as reliable if the conduct of the enquiry can be shown to have been conducted by logical means - excellent sources. What we use to call at school many decades ago "the scientific method".

This is my reasoning for ignoring the findings. As to the influence of the Catholic church, to cover ups and such I am aware of some things but basically did not have an interest until I suddenly saw all this exaggerated nonsense.
Yet in our current times (as seen in Ireland) in many predominantly Catholic countries the public, the people, and their governments have the say what they accept, not the church which controls only to the decree it is allowed to by the people. The subjects of abortion and birth control for example is down to who the people elect to enact their laws not the Catholic church. And the same goes for abusive priests. The parents and local authorities in most countries have been free to deal with the problems at the time it happens. The one time in most of these cases there is a possibility to both discover the truth and to deal with the issues. Not later when evidence or lies become murky and often unsolvable is not the time - too late.

I am not defending any offender OK. Personally the various churches reaction and willingness to give money to potentially many possible fraudsters I see not only as ill advised but could be considered irresponsible behaviour with entrusted resources. In other words I do not see them as "covering up" but taken unawares as I attempted to explain previously their general approach to life. Maybe better wording would be they are having trouble "facing up" and "seeing" what is really happening.

""In Chile, we are all subject to common justice"" - said Prosecutor Arias, who led the Santiago raid on RCC offices.

Extremely regrettable that so many jurisdictions - US states, Ireland, Australia and others - didn't take such a pragmatic stance.

Reluctant to prosecute RCC paedophiles - they turned a blind eye, and allowed these career paedophiles to regularly seek refuge in Rome.

Perhaps the dire Chilean history has made them think - NOT again! After Francis backed Barras - his local bloke - totally.

Perhaps also - the Chilean abuse will break the backs of all the camels...

Absolute garbage.

Soon (and this is hard to believe), there will be yet another referendum in Ireland - to change the Constitution.

Which says 'the woman's place is in the home'.


The Catholic church disagrees - as it does with gay marriage, homosexuality, abortion and contraception!

Unelected, with an octogenarian mediocrity in charge.

Multi-jurisdictions...has been the cult's haven and philosophy.

Barney wrote:

Adelaide Archbishop Philip Wilson has been sentenced to 12 months imprisonment for covering up child abuse by priests.

However, the Vatican is allowing him to continue working!

Cardinal Pell's case coming soon, as well as many more - in numerous countries.


Now Mal Turnbull - the Australian PM - is asking the Vatican to fire the convicted Archbishop Wilson, who is still in situ!

Even though he has dementia as well as a child sex conviction - or so he pleaded during his trial.

Undoubtedly the Catholic church looks after their own - but numerous jurisdictions in many countries are now convicting anyway.


Pell the Cardinal is next up...he may well be innocent; if not, he'll be quickly ensconced in Rome - a somewhat closed Catholic protectorate and totally independent State.

There he will join a band of fellows, with similar backgrounds from every continent!

Really boring thread,time to close it.

Yet you have 'contributed' to it more than once - only to be rebuffed!?

Barney wrote:
Now Cardinal McCarrick - the former head of Washington's catholic church - has been told to cease all his duties.

The Pope took the decision after new facts came to light regarding McCarrick's alleged sexual activities with minors in the past.

Allegations are coming from all over - even Chile - where Barros, the lead cleric, has been fired for seemingly condoning similar practices amongst his priests.

Then there was Cardinal Law - outed by the Boston Globe - but given a senior Vatican post, for years.

Soon, Cardinal Pell in Australia will be asked some intimate questions.

Dozens of countries have now had the Vatican lying to cover up scandals - on every continent.

Many direct questions will be put to the Pope in Ireland - on his August visit there.

Will he come clean - after the church denied everything there, for years - and can this flawed organisation even survive?

One likely outcome is a break-up/decentralisation - as one octogenarian in charge is clearly not enough.


McCarrick now fired, a first!

The Catholic church now is getting sense

Many more to be confronted soon

Age now seems irrelevant to the RCC

Senior clerics who allowed child abuse are being rounded up


By their own church...

Barney wrote:
Barney wrote:
Now Cardinal McCarrick - the former head of Washington's catholic church - has been told to cease all his duties.

The Pope took the decision after new facts came to light regarding McCarrick's alleged sexual activities with minors in the past.

Allegations are coming from all over - even Chile - where Barros, the lead cleric, has been fired for seemingly condoning similar practices amongst his priests.

Then there was Cardinal Law - outed by the Boston Globe - but given a senior Vatican post, for years.

Soon, Cardinal Pell in Australia will be asked some intimate questions.

Dozens of countries have now had the Vatican lying to cover up scandals - on every continent.

Many direct questions will be put to the Pope in Ireland - on his August visit there.

Will he come clean - after the church denied everything there, for years - and can this flawed organisation even survive?

One likely outcome is a break-up/decentralisation - as one octogenarian in charge is clearly not enough.


McCarrick now fired, a first!

The Catholic church now is getting sense

Many more to be confronted soon

Age now seems irrelevant to the RCC

Senior clerics who allowed child abuse are being rounded up


By their own church...

www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44993221

Just reading the BBC report and then I said to myself I bet Barney has made a comment.

From the BBC article

"He said an independent forensic agency had investigated the allegations. A review board, including legal experts, psychologists, parents and a priest, then found the allegations 'credible and substantiated'".

Just got to love these "new believers" both in the catholic church and the British police force and there must be others as well -

"I believe what Nick saying is credible and true”.

The head of the police force investigating reports of child sexual ... Sir Edward Heath reportedly believes in the allegations “120 per cent”

"substantiated" well and good but I find myself concerned to what evidence. The mention of the list of characters involved seem to point towards assessing the reliability of the statements of the first accuser from the 1970's rather than documented meetings etc from the time concerned, if you see what happened to Law below. He in fact did acknowledge problems with a paedophile priest but clearly from that time inadequate measures but the problem was not cast aside.

Also from the BBC article "Cardinal Bernard Law stepped down as archbishop of Boston in 2002 after reports he had moved paedophile priests between parishes rather than addressing victims' claims. But he was then allowed to take a job at the Vatican, where he worked until 2011. He died in Rome last year."

It is good news that the Catholic church is facing issues but bad news that in response they are allowing themselves to be dragged into ridiculous witch hunts. I hope personally they will allow priests to marry and those who take vows to change their minds if the occasion arises thus minimizing temptation and thus been practical.

Adelaide Archbishop Wilson will be next - unless the RCC accepts a dementia defence, which the courts didn't...

wjlmarsh wrote:
Barney wrote:
Barney wrote:
Now Cardinal McCarrick - the former head of Washington's catholic church - has been told to cease all his duties.

The Pope took the decision after new facts came to light regarding McCarrick's alleged sexual activities with minors in the past.

Allegations are coming from all over - even Chile - where Barros, the lead cleric, has been fired for seemingly condoning similar practices amongst his priests.

Then there was Cardinal Law - outed by the Boston Globe - but given a senior Vatican post, for years.

Soon, Cardinal Pell in Australia will be asked some intimate questions.

Dozens of countries have now had the Vatican lying to cover up scandals - on every continent.

Many direct questions will be put to the Pope in Ireland - on his August visit there.

Will he come clean - after the church denied everything there, for years - and can this flawed organisation even survive?

One likely outcome is a break-up/decentralisation - as one octogenarian in charge is clearly not enough.


McCarrick now fired, a first!

The Catholic church now is getting sense

Many more to be confronted soon

Age now seems irrelevant to the RCC

Senior clerics who allowed child abuse are being rounded up


By their own church...

www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44993221

Just reading the BBC report and then I said to myself I bet Barney has made a comment.

From the BBC article

"He said an independent forensic agency had investigated the allegations. A review board, including legal experts, psychologists, parents and a priest, then found the allegations 'credible and substantiated'".

Just got to love these "new believers" both in the catholic church and the British police force and there must be others as well -

"I believe what Nick saying is credible and true”.

The head of the police force investigating reports of child sexual ... Sir Edward Heath reportedly believes in the allegations “120 per cent”

"substantiated" well and good but I find myself concerned to what evidence. The mention of the list of characters involved seem to point towards assessing the reliability of the statements of the first accuser from the 1970's rather than documented meetings etc from the time concerned, if you see what happened to Law below. He in fact did acknowledge problems with a paedophile priest but clearly from that time inadequate measures but the problem was not cast aside.

Also from the BBC article "Cardinal Bernard Law stepped down as archbishop of Boston in 2002 after reports he had moved paedophile priests between parishes rather than addressing victims' claims. But he was then allowed to take a job at the Vatican, where he worked until 2011. He died in Rome last year."

It is good news that the Catholic church is facing issues but bad news that in response they are allowing themselves to be dragged into ridiculous witch hunts. I hope personally they will allow priests to marry and those who take vows to change their minds if the occasion arises thus minimizing temptation and thus been practical.

Being single doesn't turn people into child abusers.

honey!oh sugar sugar. wrote:


Being single doesn't turn people into child abusers.

Absolutely agree exactly same as some people prefer to be single does not mean anything about their sexuality.

Or that in non recent sex abuse cases - the expert witness notes that it is normal for some people to find it difficult to come forward immediately when sexually abused and inconsistencies in statements does not mean they lied just memory and experience distorting things over time. In court in non recent sexual abuse cases this reasonable explanation of behaviour NEVER equates to the accuser telling the truth nor does it equate to the accuser lying just one possible practical reason about why the delayed time involved in coming forward and possible reason for inconsistencies. In non recent sexual abuse testimony the simple reason that in almost all court cases the testimony does not equal evidence is simply because in non recent sexual abuse reporting as would be the case the burglaries and other crimes the crime scene provides evidence and "time" destroys this source of evidence. So the expert witness testimony is irrelevant and misleading and can cause juries to draw the wrong conclusions. Some rare cases do have reliable evidence documented from the time. Even police storage of clothing from crime "scenes" has yielded DNA that has highlighted the perpetrator and often not the person in prison convicted of the documented crime at the time.

So my apologies as my comments were never meant to mean being single makes one a child abuser in the same way it does not make one gay. Only that if one has decided due to church practices with little other alternatives to be "vowed" single for life and at the same time is not sexually suited to such a commitment can and often leads to disaster. Thus one reason why understandably makes the Catholic church a target for witch hunts. From history regrettably the Catholic church is at times noted for witch hunt endeavours similar to the current British justice system and the Vatican's latest response in this case is showing signs of this historic reaction in their dealings with the accused Cardinal, fortunately a public burning at the stake is no longer the normalor acceptable reaction.

For christian believers who take the time to follow their instruction book would find in 1 Corinthians 7 advice saying that a dedicated single life of service is great but regard to one's own needs should be considered in the christian handbook this is man + woman in the handbook that is. So to have too strong an emphasizes on the single life service is actually contrary to the handbook.

Extract from this sound advice

".....For it is better to marry than to burn with passion....."

Crossway Bibles. The Holy Bible, English Standard Version (with Cross-References) (p. 1150). Good News Publishers/Crossway Books. Kindle Edition.

Barney wrote:
Adelaide Archbishop Wilson will be next - unless the RCC accepts a dementia defence, which the courts didn't...


McCarrick will have a church court trial - a closed one, before he vanishes to an unknown destination.

We will never know the verdict, only that he was fired for child abuse.


Everyone else would be in a municipal courtroom!


Pell, however, will face a public court in Australia.

After years of RCC denials about his alleged abuse.


The same is true for Low and Wilson - 'it never happened' said Rome.

Like the Pope said about the Chilean child abuse by Catholic clergy - before a dramatic U-turn forced on him by good policing and documentary proof.


Many Irish people wonder how the biggest numbers of child abuse ever (per capita) will be addressed by the Pope on his August visit there. The evidence, confessions, convictions, statements - of clerical abusers - is irrefutable.

But he'll just say 'mea culpa' again - not 'lets punish the bastards who raped our children'....

Barney wrote:
Barney wrote:
Adelaide Archbishop Wilson will be next - unless the RCC accepts a dementia defence, which the courts didn't...


McCarrick will have a church court trial - a closed one, before he vanishes to an unknown destination.

We will never know the verdict, only that he was fired for child abuse.


Everyone else would be in a municipal courtroom!


Pell, however, will face a public court in Australia.

After years of RCC denials about his alleged abuse.


The same is true for Low and Wilson - 'it never happened' said Rome.

Like the Pope said about the Chilean child abuse by Catholic clergy - before a dramatic U-turn forced on him by good policing and documentary proof.


Many Irish people wonder how the biggest numbers of child abuse ever (per capita) will be addressed by the Pope on his August visit there. The evidence, confessions, convictions, statements - of clerical abusers - is irrefutable.

But he'll just say 'mea culpa' again - not 'lets punish the bastards who raped our children'....


Seemingly, at least one of Cardinal Pell's two trials will not be public.

I understand the second maybe, depending on the outcome of the first.

The lack of news and passing of time might indicate that - at least one trial - has started.

Perhaps Sydney Hedda could enlighten us?

Barney wrote:
Barney wrote:
Barney wrote:
Adelaide Archbishop Wilson will be next - unless the RCC accepts a dementia defence, which the courts didn't...


McCarrick will have a church court trial - a closed one, before he vanishes to an unknown destination.

We will never know the verdict, only that he was fired for child abuse.


Everyone else would be in a municipal courtroom!


Pell, however, will face a public court in Australia.

After years of RCC denials about his alleged abuse.


The same is true for Low and Wilson - 'it never happened' said Rome.

Like the Pope said about the Chilean child abuse by Catholic clergy - before a dramatic U-turn forced on him by good policing and documentary proof.


Many Irish people wonder how the biggest numbers of child abuse ever (per capita) will be addressed by the Pope on his August visit there. The evidence, confessions, convictions, statements - of clerical abusers - is irrefutable.

But he'll just say 'mea culpa' again - not 'lets punish the bastards who raped our children'....


Seemingly, at least one of Cardinal Pell's two trials will not be public.

I understand the second maybe, depending on the outcome of the first.

The lack of news and passing of time might indicate that - at least one trial - has started.

Perhaps Sydney Hedda could enlighten us?

By Jesus you are tedious.

Silent Bore - no interest; so why post unless you know Pell's legal status and predicament?

Is it not noteworthy that the Vatican's third ranked cleric has gone off the legal radar - following child abuse charges.

Tedious, yes - after McCarrick, Wilson, Low and so many others...

It's all about Tory debt.