http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6919403.stm

(ohh, err ! That little number thing that you have to type in to verify was just 666 !)

I hope those responsible are swiftly caught and brought to justice.

However, the government and the majority of the nation who back this law have to share a small part of the guilt. It was only a matter of time until something of this nature happened.

It's bad enough you can't smoke inside pubs but the ludicrous laws pertaining to outdoor areas make matters worse. There is no violence in my DNA luckily, but I feel so edgy in pubs now, I can well understand that those of a different nature and lacking in self restraint could easily snap.

Anthony wrote:

However, the government and the majority of the nation who back this law have to share a small part of the guilt. It was only a matter of time until something of this nature happened.
#
Absolute nonsense.

A more stupid statement I don't think I've heard... well not recently.

I did realise my comment would provoke that reaction and I know most people will agree with you, zoo.

But when a law is voted upon, the consequences have to be considered, whether or not you support the law, which admittedly I don't and have an axe to grind. A lot of violence is caused solely as a result of alcohol abuse, particularly in this country. When you add the smoking issue to this you create even more flashpoints.

Primarily this case is a gun crime issue, I accept that. But you will see more and more instances of violence. Drunken louts going outside for a fag to be told there's not a sufficiently high percentage of gaps around them, and to extinguish it.

This is such a trivial issue in comparison to all the ills of humanity we so often discuss on this board. Is it really worth all the fuss, and potential consequences?

Hear Hear zooloo - can't agree with Anthony's ludicrous statement here apportioning blame elsewhere as though it's partly justified to shoot someone in the head for asking thugs to stop smoking.

I for one am thoroughly enjoying the smoking ban - it's a pleasure to go back in to a pub again. If you want to smoke - nobody is stopping you - just go outside!

It really has nothing to do with smoking. I agree with Zooloo. There are certain areas of London I wouldn't set foot in, long before any smoking ban came into place. Gun crime and knife crime is out of control, and this link will show how spookily accurate Anthony Burgess' predictions of a future England were:

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6919659.stm

Blame the government for its immigration policy, which has seen us flooded out with unskilled criminals. Terrific! If I'm labelled racist then so be it. Certainly in London the problem is blacks! There I've said it!!

GLEN wrote:

I for one am thoroughly enjoying the smoking ban - it's a pleasure to go back in to a pub again.

Enjoy it while you can - there will be few pubs left soon. Huge numbers have closed in Scotland and Ireland since the ban became law.

Chrissy, I thought I was being controversial with my post, but I think you've outdone me there!

Glen, you know perfectly well my statement wasn't in any way implying that smokers are justified in committing murder for being told to put their fags out!

The point is that we create situations which provoke undesirable actions. Whether it be blacks who generally have a lower standard of living in most mixed race societies, Arabs in Israel, Catholics in Northern Ireland in the past, Islamists who get drawn to terrorism when they see what we are doing in Iraq, and now smokers. If you disenfranchise a minority, then some of that minority will react irrationally.

There is no justification for it, but if we don't create the situation in the first place, then the problems don't arise. Hence if we tolerate treating people unfairly then we DO have to share some of the guilt for the consequences.

As I say Anthony the problem persists. What do we do about the current situation in London? What do you do for example a black youth with zero education, unemployable, and with little or no hope? I agree with you to some extent, but let us all so come down hard on those that have no respect for others. JK talks about professional victims? No-one more professional than your average black? I am not being racist, I am taking the facts as they are. There are those who are unemployed, unemployable, and as my previous post highlighted have started to kill people for fun. No robbery, no motive, purely for fun! B all to with the smoking ban, everything to do with the black culture.

First, thanks for your post, ITK, I have been saying the same thing to my friend Glen for some time. Maybe he'll take note now he's heard it from you!

I don't really know how to answer your post, Chrissy, we are really talking about two different issues. I don't think there is a short term solution to the problem of gun and knife crime amongst the black community. But my point still stands in the long term. If over the decades to come we can create a truly fair society, where all minorities feel they have equal opportunity and respect, then I do believe the problem will disappear. Do I think this will ever happen? NO!!

Really, I am more concerned right now with being the latest victim of fascism. I have just got home from a night out, constantly having to stand out in the rain to smoke. I have a congenital spinal complaint which makes standing very painful, and have had to take way over the recommended dose of strong painkillers just to stand a chance of sleeping tonight. So, Glen, I'm pleased you're happy to enjoy your smoke free pub experience, for the short amount of time it will last, as ITK says, but it isn't much fun for me. And a note for non smokers. Sit inside and stop hogging all the outdoor seating areas and give me a chance of a good, or at least pain free night out! Thanks

Anthony wrote:

Really, I am more concerned right now with being the latest victim of fascism.

And THATS what this smoking ban is all about. It is a farce. For years we have been pushed about by this nanny Government being told what we can and cannot do.

However... take a look at this...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/6763555.stm

This is now in operation here in Liverpool but in worse form than stated here. If I am to have a visit from the council, landlord, electricians, gas meter readers etc, I am now being expected to not smoke at all in MY OWN HOME for 48 hours before the visit so I am not "endangering" these pesky visitors health. This is NOT a joke and how long will it be before this gets introduced everywhere else? So already one is being persecuted for smoking in the privacy of ones home. That is pure fascism.

I have spoken to several cafe owners, a couple of pub landlords and the man running a major rehearsal studio here in the last couple of weeks about this ban. None of them are happy about it. If some nasty teenager or troublemaker walks into any of the cafes and lights up, the owner has to eject them immediately, BUT if they get caught by a bigwig that owner gets fined

Black people: there is no indication that black people have an inherent tendency to shoot people. They don't shoot people because they are black there are other roots and causes.

So of itself being black is irrelevant.

Smoking: comparing the restrictions on smoking to Fascism is an insult to those who suffered and fought against it. People who made very real sacrifices are being belittled by such foolishness.

Making such comments is more effective in destroying your credibility than anything anyone else could do.

Anthony wrote:
First, thanks for your post, ITK, I have been saying the same thing to my friend Glen for some time. Maybe he'll take note now he's heard it from you!


I agree with Anthony - that this is a kind of fascism. Didn't ALL pubs have smoking rooms once? Just because someone else has decided that they do not want to smoke - why should centuries-old routines by changed just to suit them? Were the pubs and the smoking rooms not there before they (and their latest fad) were?

The non-smoking lobby is also very narrow-minded and short-sighted ... as soon as they realise that G Brown will have to make up the lost

Quite so, ITK. Goodness knows what would happen to us if everyone gave up smoking. There would initially be a huge shortfall in the NHS, as people would still suffer from smoking related illnesses for decades. Then what about our already precarious pension situation? Life expectancy would shoot up. We would have to work till we were about 80. The pensionable age is creeping up as it is.

And as for your comment about my reference to fascism, zooloo, surely to goodness you have some awareness of matters of scale. I don't expect to be carted off to a concentration camp, nor do I envisage pro smoking terrorists crashing planes into iconic buildings. Nonetheless, it is still small scale fascism. No doubt about it. And once you start tolerating fascism, who knows where it will end.

The stupid... it burns.

Moving the issue sideways slightly,I gave up smoking for years before re-starting (doh!), and was a pub goer at the time.
I found my drinking habits whilst in the pub had speeded up, due to the focus on only one thing being in my hand.
I suggest that this has already started happening in general and an increase in night club drunkeness is emerging.
A friend of mine was nightclubbing recently, and the house rules were that nobody was allowed outside for a cigarette until midnight, otherwise they would have to repay the admission charge.
Hmmm,....

That doesn`t irritate a slightly gasping tipsy smoker too much does it?

The ban has had the opposite effect on me, Mart. I am drinking far less now I can't have a cigarette with my pint. Not sure whether there is some psychological reason for this. More likely that I spend so much time moaning and whining about my deprivation and boring anyone polite enough to listen, that I don't have time to drink. That and the fact I often end up throwing my toys out of the pram and storming off home in exasperation.

I tried to quit in 1989. Three months of ever increasing, unbearable utter misery, it was. In the end, I decided I may as well take the health risks on the chin, and start again.

I`ve stopped drinking completely, and it seems to have had the effect of making me a lot healthier than when I gave up smoking but continued drinking.

For goodness sake you lot, how about a little perpsective here?

ITK - I guess only you could have blamed this murder on the smoking ban. What utter nonsense. Oyebola could had quite as easily have been stabbed or shot by some little shit for asking him/her to stop bullying an old granny on a bus? It's a sad fact that this type of incident is becoming all too frequent in this country.

I'm reading lots about nanny-state this, facists that, "my right to smoke" etc etc..

All of that is Absolute Bollox (and by the way, I am a smoker myself).

Let's boil it down into simple terms. The smoking ban applies in UK Workplaces.

So, let's think about the people who have to work in these places.

If you are a smoker, it is through your own CHOICE. I know I certainly have nobody pointing a gun at my head forcing ME to smoke.

There is an alleged link between passive smoking and lung cancer. I know this will prompt debate on here but I'd imagine that because there aren't too many doctors or cancer research chemists posting here I guess we''ll have to leave that debate to the scientists.

Smoking Kills. That is an unescapable truth. Any initiative to reduce the amount of people killed by smoking should, in my view, be welcomed.

Pete Clarke wrote:

ITK - I guess only you could have blamed this murder on the smoking ban.

I didn't blame anything on anyone one - just reported a fact !

As for saying this could have happened to anyone at any time - you wouldn't get little old grannies waiting for a bus in a bar !!!

And as for the employees (of said bar) having a choice ... that will be a choice of where they work next - when the bar closes (and thousands have been forced to do already in both Scotland and Ireland).