If a chunk off the country wants NOT to be a part of the UK (or Ukraine) and a referendum is held with a majority for independence, shouldn't we support that decision even if we disagree with it? Should not Ukraine now hold a regional referendum? Wanna be Ukrainian, wanna be Independent or wanna be Russian? Up to voters in a democracy, surely?

I think "Independent" and Russian amount to the same thing for these territories. The pro Russian authorities in the two regions declared Independent then invite the Russian military in to deal with rebels. Thus the annexation of Eastern Ukraine is achieved.

JK2006 wrote:
Should not Ukraine now hold a regional referendum?


Under the Ukrainian constitution, a 3 million population initiative is required, equating to 7% of the population, to trigger a referendum. Because of the warlike and extremely volatile atmosphere in the region, this wouldn't be possible unless the situation drags on, inexplicably.

But a) so what? If the majority in those two regions prefer to be Russian or Russian protected, why not? And b) I think the anti-Ukrainians might split the pro-Russian vote and end up losing.

JK2006 wrote:
But a) so what? If the majority in those two regions prefer to be Russian or Russian protected, why not? And b) I think the anti-Ukrainians might split the pro-Russian vote and end up losing.

Yes I agree we fall for a lot of propaganda where Russia is concerned. NATO has been remarkably expansive and from a Russian perspective aggressive along its borders. Putin = bad/Hitler is too simple and deliberately blinds us to NATO self-interest.

It is in NATOs interest to promote the idea of the inviolable sovereignty and geo -political unity of Ukraine; when the truth is other, with a heavy identity in these regions as Russian.

Hopefully this is the end game for Putin (it is entirely against his self interest to take it any further).

We will talk tough about "sanctions" and pretend to clean up "dirty" Russian money. There will be localised resistance and outbreaks for years rumbling on; but no further escalation.

Alternately there will be the biggest war in Europe since the Second World War.

Johnson has announced that now Russia has invaded Ukraine that it should be stripped of the right to host this year's Champions League Final.

That should get the tanks in reverse gear pronto...

Pillock.

But you see now as always it's a simple issue. Ukraine free - good. Russian occupied - bad. But clearly it is more complex than that. Some in Eastern Ukraine want to be Russian. Yet media and politicians only push one side or the other.

The simple narrative also extends to why Putin might be doing this. NATO good spreaders of democracy in the West OR aggressive expansionists lining up missles along Russia's border in the East. NATO has a lot to answer for as does Putin because he HAS invaded a sovereign country. Meanwhile both sides cancel all talks, and citizens lap up the propaganda espoused in their areas. Simple narratives lead to fist fights down your local and wars....

Yet again Peter Hitchens very interesting in the Mail today. Like Covid, I know nothing. But Hitchens speaks with experience (he lived in Russia for years).

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10540...-Ukraine-crisis.html

Fuck....

Now, the critical factor is the type and degree of retaliation. And from whom.

Simone wrote:
Now, the critical factor is the type and degree of retaliation. And from whom.

For God's sake Barney your regurgitation of the bleedin' obvious was bad enough for two years through Covid - please spare us all when we are facing the possibility of a large scale European war; or even use of nuclear weapons should Putin actually prove to be insane...