Her family criticises agencies for "abandoning" this woman, who remained undiscovered deceased in her flat for three years:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-64400776

Yet her family had abandoned her too. Surely her family have more responsibility towards her than the state?

It's always somebody's else's fault with cases like this. Mental health workers have been stretched for years. Care in the community is a myth it's just a way of saying let the neighbours do it.

One of my sister's lives in a row of terraced houses and no one ever talks to each other. I waved and nodded at a couple of her neighbours that live several doors up to her, I was just ignored.

The only time my neighbour's talk to each other is in the pub or if they need a power tool to borrow.

Wyot wrote:
Yet her family had abandoned her too. Surely her family have more responsibility towards her than the state?


Without knowing the full story and circumstances behind the life of this ill lady, it's difficult to apportion blame.

Although it seems likely that the relevant government agencies took their eyes off the ball; however, even that will have to be investigated.

In addition, we have no knowledge about the family - its efforts, status or background. Only the time factor gave the story prominence.

Oscar Freedom wrote:
Wyot wrote:
Yet her family had abandoned her too. Surely her family have more responsibility towards her than the state?


Without knowing the full story and circumstances behind the life of this ill lady, it's difficult to apportion blame.

Although it seems likely that the relevant government agencies took their eyes off the ball; however, even that will have to be investigated.

In addition, we have no knowledge about the family - its efforts, status or background. Only the time factor gave the story prominence.

Absolutely agree and I wasn't trying to "blame" anyone.

It may be the family had little choice but to have abandoned her. I find it striking, though, that they bemoan agencies for abandoning her with no self consciousness that they had respondibility too, and also abandoned her. Also that the media makes no mention of this. Because it dilutes the simplicity of their story.

This illustrates a wider malaise: the assumption that the state exists to take responsibility for us all, rather than just stepping in at times of acute need.

We are primarily responsible for our own lives and families. It seems to me, in so many ways, this is largely lost on people today. And leads to all manner of social ills.

Wyot wrote:
Her family criticises agencies for "abandoning" this woman, who remained undiscovered deceased in her flat for three years:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-64400776

Yet her family had abandoned her too. Surely her family have more responsibility towards her than the state?

When a family having them member is so unwell, you are terrified of making things worse by pushing them towards suicide.
Beyond terrified, actually, but there is no word for it.

You can not force a competent adult to see you or speak to you, and you are not allowed any information from health professionals.

Unless someone is actually committed, which is very rare, they are free to disengage with services at any time.

I would imagine that these relatives have been through hell already, and now they are blamed for something beyond their control.

Wyot wrote:
Oscar Freedom wrote:
Wyot wrote:
Yet her family had abandoned her too. Surely her family have more responsibility towards her than the state?


Without knowing the full story and circumstances behind the life of this ill lady, it's difficult to apportion blame.

Although it seems likely that the relevant government agencies took their eyes off the ball; however, even that will have to be investigated.

In addition, we have no knowledge about the family - its efforts, status or background. Only the time factor gave the story prominence.

Absolutely agree and I wasn't trying to "blame" anyone.

It may be the family had little choice but to have abandoned her. I find it striking, though, that they bemoan agencies for abandoning her with no self consciousness that they had respondibility too, and also abandoned her. Also that the media makes no mention of this. Because it dilutes the simplicity of their story.

This illustrates a wider malaise: the assumption that the state exists to take responsibility for us all, rather than just stepping in at times of acute need.

We are primarily responsible for our own lives and families. It seems to me, in so many ways, this is largely lost on people today. And leads to all manner of social ills.

I agree there Wyot. People like to pass problems on to someone else. In a mot of Asian countries it's frowned upon not look after elderly relatives.

In the West throw them in care homes, then wait for the inheritance to come in.

Maybe the poor lady did have care workers.

She probably told the care workers to fuck off or not to turn up. People can only do so much to help someone for fuck sake.

It's not the same but when my retired and sold the pub and house. They moved to another quaint village. On the first Christmas they sent Christmas cards to every house just to break the ice.

They didn't get any in return apart from next-door.

People only want you if they want something from you.

It is the first responsibility of a government to protect and safeguard the lives of its citizens.

Between 26% and 36% of people in the UK live alone (internally or externally); the latter figure is for Scotland.

Some by choice - some with no option, for a large variety of reasons. Ironically, Westminster has the largest homeless population.

Our government's priority must be to those who're optionless, have nowhere to go - and have made their situation/case to the authorities.

It's a matter of record that a high proportion of the homeless and vulnerable are military veterans - often selling their medals for the price of a meal!

Mental illness, alcoholism, drug addiction become factors of loneliness and homelessness. But the Stock Markets (LSE included) have never been as healthy!!


As the neighbours of the ill and homeless get richer and richer...

Honey wrote:
[quote]Wyot wrote:


I would imagine that these relatives have been through hell already, and now they are blamed for something beyond their control.

Well who knows Honey; maybe her family are just callous? Obviously, I have no idea, and unlike the woman's family or the media am not seeking to blame anyone. Just to highlight where assumptions tend to be made about lines of responsibility now.

It is equally challenging for the state to "save" someone as her family, if a competent adult does not wish to engage with agencies.

I don't know precisely what you do professionally, but having "known" you on this site for a number of years I get the sense you will have seen this?

Green Man wrote:
[quote]Wyot wrote:
[quote]Oscar Freedom wrote:
[quote]Wyot wrote:


She probably told the care workers to fuck off or not to turn up. People can only do so much to help someone for fuck sake.



Exactly. And it is interesting that people are assuming I am blaming the family by pointing out they are quick to blame the state. Why the assumption that anyone is to "blame"? It pervades everything now.

Honey wrote:
Wyot wrote:
Her family criticises agencies for "abandoning" this woman, who remained undiscovered deceased in her flat for three years:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-64400776

Yet her family had abandoned her too. Surely her family have more responsibility towards her than the state?

When a family having them member is so unwell, you are terrified of making things worse by pushing them towards suicide.
Beyond terrified, actually, but there is no word for it.

You can not force a competent adult to see you or speak to you, and you are not allowed any information from health professionals.

Unless someone is actually committed, which is very rare, they are free to disengage with services at any time.

I would imagine that these relatives have been through hell already, and now they are blamed for something beyond their control.

It's very hard to talk somebody out off killing themselves. Only the depressed individual can prevent it from happening.

They are normally very happy a few days before they kill themselves or on the day it happens. I only know of 2 people who done it, one left a note other one did not.

Oscar Freedom wrote:
It is the first responsibility of a government to protect and safeguard the lives of its citizens.



This can be argued; but defining what it means is impossible in any meaningful way. Did this woman not have agencies available to her? Benefits? Civic freedoms? Mental health & voluntary agencies who would have engaged with her should she gave sought them? Would the above not constitute the discharging of the state's duty? What more do you imagine the state can be responsible for, or do?

Wyot wrote:
Oscar Freedom wrote:
It is the first responsibility of a government to protect and safeguard the lives of its citizens.



This can be argued; but defining what it means is impossible in any meaningful way. Did this woman not have agencies available to her? Benefits? Civic freedoms? Mental health & voluntary agencies who would have engaged with her should she gave sought them? Would the above not constitute the discharging of the state's duty? What more do you imagine the state can be responsible for, or do?


Why is it the government or taxpayers responsibility?

Green Man wrote:
[quote]Wyot wrote:
[quote]Oscar Freedom wrote:



Why is it the government or taxpayers responsibility?

I don't think it is their responsibility. That said, as a tax payer I am happy to support those destitute and in genuine need. But this presupposes that the individual and their family have taken responsibility already; and this has not worked.

What happens now is the individual believes the responsibility sits with the state initially and primarily; which leads to social decay on every level.

And a victim culture as people's lives don't live up to expectations, the responsibility for which they see also sitting with the "state" (or let's say the system), rather than themselves.

As victims it is then seen as their right to gain compensation from "the system". Or, more pertinent to this site perhaps, a celebrity. Unhappy, unfulfilled people, schooled to believe they are both entitled and wronged, are a cancer on our society.

Oscar Freedom wrote:
It is the first responsibility of a government to protect and safeguard the lives of its citizens.


www.gov.uk/government/organisations/home-office/about#


The official government policy from the Home Office website - the first line says it all.

Oscar Freedom wrote:
Oscar Freedom wrote:
It is the first responsibility of a government to protect and safeguard the lives of its citizens.


www.gov.uk/government/organisations/home-office/about#


The official government policy from the Home Office website - the first line says it all.

Always a constant stimulation debating with you Barney...

I imagine it is as riveting for non posters as it is for me.

Wyot wrote:
Oscar Freedom wrote:
Oscar Freedom wrote:
It is the first responsibility of a government to protect and safeguard the lives of its citizens.


www.gov.uk/government/organisations/home-office/about#


The official government policy from the Home Office website - the first line says it all.

Always a constant stimulation debating with you Barney...

I imagine it is as riveting for non posters as it is for me.

I will try and contain all the excitement
A good evening to you Wyot.

Backintheday wrote:
Wyot wrote:
Oscar Freedom wrote:
Oscar Freedom wrote:
It is the first responsibility of a government to protect and safeguard the lives of its citizens.


www.gov.uk/government/organisations/home-office/about#


The official government policy from the Home Office website - the first line says it all.

Always a constant stimulation debating with you Barney...

I imagine it is as riveting for non posters as it is for me.

I will try and contain all the excitement
A good evening to you Wyot.

What are you smoking Barney?