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Everyone who works is a working people, if young entrepreneurs who buy and sell second hand clothes and trainers that is working, some of them have become very succesful, people used to buy and sell rare or out of print records and DVDs as nice little sideline.
People are Onlyfans could be considered working people if they are doing full time and doing nothing else, there is enough simps and incels these days. The models know that; but you don't become rich working for other people.
Rayner is trying cause deflection and Christ that voice. Why do Labour MPs have lisps?
I'll tell you a little story about the difference between Tory and Labour politicians who I encountered as a working person.
In the last year of the Thatcher government one of her ministers at the time, David Heathcote-Amory who was an environment minister, came to visit where I worked on a fact finding tour. Now I was very young and hadn't been in that job long and was tucked away in the corner of the office doing my work, we had about half a dozen of us in there, we just got on with our jobs as normal as he arrived in the government jag. No standing on ceremony in a line or any of that nonsense. He had his little tour with the MD and came back into the office and made a point of coming right over to me, shook my hand and engaged a charming conversation. A pleasant impression was left.
A few weeks later his Labour environment shadow visited, Ann Taylor, later part of Blair's government. She got the guided tour like the actual government member had been given. When that ended she ignored everyone and only engaged with the MD in his office, the door left open so we could all see. Not the slightest acknowledgement of anyone else as she got up and went. Well did that leave an impression too about the class of some people and how they treat others. Heathcote-Amory looked snooty and self important but was nothing of the kind and Taylor looked amiable and approachable and proved quite the opposite.
After writing this I've looked them both up on wikipedia. Turns out Heathcote Amory got done in the 2009 expenses scandal buying £30,000 of manure on the taxpayer that he had to repay, and Taylor is on the Lords gravy train as a Baroness.
Rich wrote: I'll tell you a little story about the difference between Tory and Labour politicians who I encountered as a working person.
In the last year of the Thatcher government one of her ministers at the time, David Heathcote-Amory who was an environment minister, came to visit where I worked on a fact finding tour. Now I was very young and hadn't been in that job long and was tucked away in the corner of the office doing my work, we had about half a dozen of us in there, we just got on with our jobs as normal as he arrived in the government jag. No standing on ceremony in a line or any of that nonsense. He had his little tour with the MD and came back into the office and made a point of coming right over to me, shook my hand and engaged a charming conversation. A pleasant impression was left.
A few weeks later his Labour environment shadow visited, Ann Taylor, later part of Blair's government. She got the guided tour like the actual government member had been given. When that ended she ignored everyone and only engaged with the MD in his office, the door left open so we could all see. Not the slightest acknowledgement of anyone else as she got up and went. Well did that leave an impression too about the class of some people and how they treat others. Heathcote-Amory looked snooty and self important but was nothing of the kind and Taylor looked amiable and approachable and proved quite the opposite.
After writing this I've looked them both up on wikipedia. Turns out Heathcote Amory got done in the 2009 expenses scandal buying £30,000 of manure on the taxpayer that he had to repay, and Taylor is on the Lords gravy train as a Baroness.
Yet, people insult those with conservative values. Just who are the nasty party again?
Sorry I don't think it is down to politics, money, background or political alleigance.
Some people have been raised well to treat others with respect and others have been raised to believe they are the centre of the universe. We can all find examples either way.
I do agree GM that calling people with right-wing political views is simplistic, unfair and childish. Both right and left are generally trying to achieve "good" but just believe this is achieved in different ways.
I will wait for Reeves Halloween budget before I make any serious judgement on this government. So far not impressed, but I will add that I believe that last Tory shower were incompetent,lazy and callous. Namely Grenfell Tower---Rees Mogg saying the victims 'lacked common sense'-- the sheer greed during Covid---the deterioration of housing-- back to Grenfell--- and some people living in slums akin to a Third World country---the deliberate neglect and demonisation of the NHS---and the instability. 5 PM's in 14 years...a lack of Leader
ship. And of course Brexit. The Tories massive cherry on the top of a trifle full of chaos. Brexit has made us poorer and less powerful. "TAXI!"
Why is the Grenfell Tower still standing 7 years later. It should have been demolished. Do they want it as some kind of weird shrine to that event and those people or something?
Brexit has made the UK pooer has it, really? Very few of the major problems in the UK have anything to do with leaving the EU and the last government and this one next week are making a good enough job themselves of making everyone less well off, financially, medically, and emotionally.
How come this United Kingdom was so robust a nation before the Common Market/EEC/EC/EU. Yes, just look how the name of it kept changing by stealth thinking we wouldn't notice. Well I noticed and I haven't forgotten either.
Someone is making from Grenfell Tower in one way or another, it's council property, if it was costing them money they would have knocked it down by now. Councils are corrupt to the core.
There is always money to be made in land.
EEC was about moving and trading goods and capital nothing more and nothing else.
Rich wrote: Why is the Grenfell Tower still standing 7 years later. It should have been demolished. Do they want it as some kind of weird shrine to that event and those people or something?
Brexit has made the UK pooer has it, really? Very few of the major problems in the UK have anything to do with leaving the EU and the last government and this one next week are making a good enough job themselves of making everyone less well off, financially, medically, and emotionally.
How come this United Kingdom was so robust a nation before the Common Market/EEC/EC/EU. Yes, just look how the name of it kept changing by stealth thinking we wouldn't notice. Well I noticed and I haven't forgotten either. So please list the great benefits of shutting ourselves out of the largest trading bloc in the World? I'm very sorry but I can't think of any at all. The entire exercise from its conception through to realisation has been as worthless as it has been tedious. And it was largely won by greedy fat cats wanting the UK to become an island tax haven, squashing smaller businesses by limiting their ability to trade freely. Plus food prices up, fresh produce on the shelves decimated, immigration up, NHS poorer despite Johnson's false promises, Armed forces cut to the bone--the EU were allegedly going to dissolve our Armed forces into an all in one EU Army...A LIE.
So please list the great benefits of shutting ourselves out of the largest trading bloc in the World? I'm very sorry but I can't think of any at all.
Before your time on this site DSC I posted a challenge a few times to the Brexit champions to name one tangible real terms benefit from it all? Just a sentence.
Wyot wrote:
[quote]Downing Street Cat wrote: Rich wrote:
So please list the great benefits of shutting ourselves out of the largest trading bloc in the World? I'm very sorry but I can't think of any at all.
Before your time on this site DSC I posted a challenge a few times to the Brexit champions to name one tangible real terms benefit from it all? Just a sentence.
Never an answer there came. Ha ha Wyot. Not expecting a long list now to be fair.
Downing Street Cat wrote:
So please list the great benefits of shutting ourselves out of the largest trading bloc in the World? I'm very sorry but I can't think of any at all. The entire exercise from its conception through to realisation has been as worthless as it has been tedious. And it was largely won by greedy fat cats wanting the UK to become an island tax haven, squashing smaller businesses by limiting their ability to trade freely. Plus food prices up, fresh produce on the shelves decimated, immigration up, NHS poorer despite Johnson's false promises, Armed forces cut to the bone--the EU were allegedly going to dissolve our Armed forces into an all in one EU Army...A LIE.[/quote]
Larry,
I run a small business involving both the import and export of large amounts of food and non food items for the food retail and restaurant trade, 90 percent of my dealings are in mainland EU markets and my business is thriving even better than it was ten years ago and I've had no Brexit difficulties. Food prices are not up because of Brexit. I would be able to prove to you quite easily that any of the increased costs in certain parts of the business and in particular markets on certain goods in various sectors have nothing to do with the UK not being in the EU. There was always plenty of paperwork involved even when we were inside the EU, much of that vanished only to be replaced like for like with different but overall I think I actually do have less than ten years ago even with more business overall. I trade as freely now as I ever did, more so actually, a lot more so. Our small business is turning over more with our continental EU markets than ever before. I don't get where this idea is coming from that businesses, large or small are being stifled by Brexit, it's just not borne out by my experiences and never has been. The worst time was just before 2020 with all the uncertainty from 2017 to 2019 actually, and that was caused by politicians not doing the job they had been given and creating difficulties instead of just getting on with it. I was what you could call a lukewarm remainer, I voted remain in 2016 but am comfortable with the state of things as they now are. I would not vote to take us back again. Nobody is limiting our business ability to trade freely with anyone in Europe, either EU or non-EU national markets on the continent. Nobody British is being prevented from working or travelling in the EU quite freely either. My 24 year old son has been doing just this for two years.
I also own a property in Portugal and nobody coming and going has had any difficulties doing so or taken any longer and we jaunt there and back half a dozen times a year. On business going to countless EU countries I've encountered no negatives regards travelling or doing business in person, and in the last ten years I've probably been to 15 differnet EU countries before and after we actually left.
Immigration is through the roof but this is not EU European sourced immigration is it. This is non European immigration from Africa and the Middle and Far East and what has made it easier for this immigration to arrive in the UK is the mainland EU itself which enables movement through many nation states unchecked with the illegal boats and for the legal stuff in the bigger numbers it's the UK government's actual choice to allow these figures and nothing to do with the EU. We the UK have made the mess up there, not the EU and not Brexit. I've had a couple of dubious non European foreign nationals in the past when we advertised for a job attempt to seek employment with us and ask if they could be allowed to work for cash in hand for less than the minimum wage, undercutting our own homegrown workforce and not paying tax in other words. They get nowhere on that, I suspected they may be here illegally and not even prepared to work legally because they can't provide a NI number and even the name could have been false. We have one EU national from Brno in Czechia who's been with us for 12 years and is fantastic and hasn't been affected by Brexit and another who left to go back home but most on our small payroll are British and well paid in an expanding business with Europe.
I was a remainer but when I see people like politician and businessman Michael Heseltine nowadays who still crops up once in a while I do wonder what he is actually talking about and wonder just how long ago the man actually did any real business himself. Remainers like me just dusted ourselves down and got on with it after the vote, while when we left others stewed about it and felt vengeful and just couldn't stop talking this country down again and again.
The EU army is a daft idea. We already have NATO. We don't need another structure. If there was ever a vote on NATO membership I'd vote to remain. Nation states should control their own forces and even within NATO they do. It's worked for 75 years quite well.
I am very much a working person and expect to get clobbered next Wednesday. It will be the arch remainers in this government from the PM down that will be doing this to me and making me and our business pay the price and nothing to do with leavers and Brexit. How ironic is that when you think about it.
Steve wrote: Downing Street Cat wrote:
So please list the great benefits of shutting ourselves out of the largest trading bloc in the World? I'm very sorry but I can't think of any at all. The entire exercise from its conception through to realisation has been as worthless as it has been tedious. And it was largely won by greedy fat cats wanting the UK to become an island tax haven, squashing smaller businesses by limiting their ability to trade freely. Plus food prices up, fresh produce on the shelves decimated, immigration up, NHS poorer despite Johnson's false promises, Armed forces cut to the bone--the EU were allegedly going to dissolve our Armed forces into an all in one EU Army...A LIE.
Larry,
I run a small business involving both the import and export of large amounts of food and non food items for the food retail and restaurant trade, 90 percent of my dealings are in mainland EU markets and my business is thriving even better than it was ten years ago and I've had no Brexit difficulties. Food prices are not up because of Brexit. I would be able to prove to you quite easily that any of the increased costs in certain parts of the business and in particular markets on certain goods in various sectors have nothing to do with the UK not being in the EU. There was always plenty of paperwork involved even when we were inside the EU, much of that vanished only to be replaced like for like with different but overall I think I actually do have less than ten years ago even with more business overall. I trade as freely now as I ever did, more so actually, a lot more so. Our small business is turning over more with our continental EU markets than ever before. I don't get where this idea is coming from that businesses, large or small are being stifled by Brexit, it's just not borne out by my experiences and never has been. The worst time was just before 2020 with all the uncertainty from 2017 to 2019 actually, and that was caused by politicians not doing the job they had been given and creating difficulties instead of just getting on with it. I was what you could call a lukewarm remainer, I voted remain in 2016 but am comfortable with the state of things as they now are. I would not vote to take us back again. Nobody is limiting our business ability to trade freely with anyone in Europe, either EU or non-EU national markets on the continent. Nobody British is being prevented from working or travelling in the EU quite freely either. My 24 year old son has been doing just this for two years.
I also own a property in Portugal and nobody coming and going has had any difficulties doing so or taken any longer and we jaunt there and back half a dozen times a year. On business going to countless EU countries I've encountered no negatives regards travelling or doing business in person, and in the last ten years I've probably been to 15 differnet EU countries before and after we actually left.
Immigration is through the roof but this is not EU European sourced immigration is it. This is non European immigration from Africa and the Middle and Far East and what has made it easier for this immigration to arrive in the UK is the mainland EU itself which enables movement through many nation states unchecked with the illegal boats and for the legal stuff in the bigger numbers it's the UK government's actual choice to allow these figures and nothing to do with the EU. We the UK have made the mess up there, not the EU and not Brexit. I've had a couple of dubious non European foreign nationals in the past when we advertised for a job attempt to seek employment with us and ask if they could be allowed to work for cash in hand for less than the minimum wage, undercutting our own homegrown workforce and not paying tax in other words. They get nowhere on that, I suspected they may be here illegally and not even prepared to work legally because they can't provide a NI number and even the name could have been false. We have one EU national from Brno in Czechia who's been with us for 12 years and is fantastic and hasn't been affected by Brexit and another who left to go back home but most on our small payroll are British and well paid in an expanding business with Europe.
I was a remainer but when I see people like politician and businessman Michael Heseltine nowadays who still crops up once in a while I do wonder what he is actually talking about and wonder just how long ago the man actually did any real business himself. Remainers like me just dusted ourselves down and got on with it after the vote, while when we left others stewed about it and felt vengeful and just couldn't stop talking this country down again and again.
The EU army is a daft idea. We already have NATO. We don't need another structure. If there was ever a vote on NATO membership I'd vote to remain. Nation states should control their own forces and even within NATO they do. It's worked for 75 years quite well.
I am very much a working person and expect to get clobbered next Wednesday. It will be the arch remainers in this government from the PM down that will be doing this to me and making me and our business pay the price and nothing to do with leavers and Brexit. How ironic is that when you think about it.
Hope that gives you a bit more information Larry.[/quote]
Thank you Steve. Terrific reply. I respect your views and your own experiences, and you clearly know what you're talking about. I am aware of many people who have suffered however, real damage. Competing businesses in other countries able to grow faster, be stronger, and leverage their better balance sheets to fund innovation and growth more than their UK counterparts is what I have continually been told and read about it. However, I admit that confidence has grown in more recent times, but I would also argue that isn't the story for many. Miaoow.
The killer line for me from Steve came right at the end with the last sentence, Steve saying - "I am very much a working person and expect to get clobbered next Wednesday. It will be the arch remainers in this government from the PM down that will be doing this to me and making me and our business pay the price and nothing to do with leavers and Brexit. How ironic is that when you think about it."
Very ironic indeed Steve. The real damage to the British economy, employers and businesses across the land will be done from within the UK itself by its own governing party.
I liked the confidence that DSC and Wyot felt that they would not get an answer only to be bulldozed with a stunningly good blitz straight back.
Regards Brexit and the benefits, well it would have been easier to see without that wretched pandemic getting in the way at the exact same time we left formally. But the last government should have made far more of the abilities they had once we left. The most obvious was the ability to fully remove VAT from fuel bills for instance. That would be a big deal to nearly everyone. Couldn't lower it less than 5% while in the EU, could abolish it entirely once we left. To not do so was a major mistake. The way in which the last government failed to realise many of the available benefits they could have done is a bit like some of these people you hear about from time to time who live long frugal lives penny pinching yet when they pass and get their last will and testament read everyone finds out they had a million or more liquid assets in the bank and nobody knew.
Very ironic indeed Steve. The real damage to the British economy, employers and businesses across the land will be done from within the UK itself by its own governing party.
I liked the confidence that DSC and Wyot felt that they would not get an answer only to be bulldozed with a stunningly good blitz straight back.
Regards Brexit and the benefits, well it would have been easier to see without that wretched pandemic getting in the way at the exact same time we left formally. But the last government should have made far more of the abilities they had once we left. The most obvious was the ability to fully remove VAT from fuel bills for instance. That would be a big deal to nearly everyone. Couldn't lower it less than 5% while in the EU, could abolish it entirely once we left. To not do so was a major mistake. The way in which the last government failed to realise many of the available benefits they could have done is a bit like some of these people you hear about from time to time who live long frugal lives penny pinching yet when they pass and get their last will and testament read everyone finds out they had a million or more liquid assets in the bank and nobody knew.
Ah ok Rich there were many potential benefits that those in Government, unlike yourself, were too dim to see.
While the only tangible alleged benefit you mention is possibly reducing VAT on fuel bills. Is that bloody well it?
Well the Government could reduce tax on all sorts of things if it wished to reduce tax revenue and put more money back in our pockets - inside or outside the EU.
This is just a Brexiteer headline not a substantive point.
Bulldozed my arse.
Come on: in one clear sentence - not prolix word salads or solipsistic journalling - one real tangible benefit that was a direct result of leaving the EU?
Yes my post was a little on the rude side for which I apologise to Rich.
However Phil I do not accept that I said Brexiteers are "dim".
I don't think this. I think their ongoing inability to articulate a clear tangible benefit is however illuminating. And I suspect the more intelligent of them have probably, albeit quietly, changed their minds.
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