It seems those anti the current Trump suggestions are Trump haters. I'm no fan but - like Gaza - I see great sense in his ideas to stop two sides killing each other. He's in a good position - if they don't make peace he will permanently stop sending supplies to Ukraine. This has gone on long enough. Neither side is blameless. For years a chunk of the citizens in the East of Ukraine wanted to be Russian. Putin should NOT have invaded. But that is past. This is now. An immediate ceasefire. How and where the border is drawn must be between Zelensky and Putin. Perhaps a peacekeeping force needs to be in place - NATO and USA. It's worked in Korea. In Cyprus. In Ireland. If Ukraine is a democracy - a referendum? But the important thing is - the war must and will end and negotiations must start.

Outrage as millions ask how Trump can say Ukraine provoked Russia into invading Ukraine. But - am I imagining it? Were there not years - over a decade - of troubles in Eastern Ukraine with protests from citizens who considered themselves Russian? Weren't there violent repressions? Even deaths? Or did that never happen and was it a peaceful place, rather like Ulster during the (imaginary?) Troubles?

Yes JK. I agree with all of that. And there are some more cynical who claim Zelensky has profited greatly from the ongoing conflict. He was bolstered by Biden and Starmer and Johnson of course, and sang his praises for Israel, even nipping over to enjoy a few jollys with Benny whilst Gazans fried. For me a Referendum is critical. But should Ukrainians opt back in, Zelensky will be done. Too much for him personally to lose.

But also I will say, that Trump and Russia need to invite Zelensky to the table in any future discussions. That is also crucial. Shutting out Ukraine and Europe is madness.

And yes now Zelensky says any deal without Ukraine is impossible. OF COURSE IT IS!!!! How can a deal be done between two countries without one of the countries? It sounds sensible but is in fact a meaningless truism. Both sides (indeed, everyone) seem happy to speak in truisms and observers/commentators follow along like sheep.
As for Europe - no - Europe has nothing to do with it. Unless we are asked to provide peace keeping forces.

I'm not familiar with the situation in eastern Ukraine, but this is the BBC verify page.

Fact-checking Trump claims about war in Ukraine

... Ukraine didn't start the war. Russia launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, having annexed Crimea in 2014.

The annexation came after Ukraine's pro-Russian president was ousted by popular demonstrations.

Russia also backed proxy forces who seized areas of eastern Ukraine, and it accused the new government in Kyiv of discrimination and genocide against Russian speakers. The International Court of Justice has rejected Moscow's claims. ...

Much as I dislike Trump (I guess that's the standard beginning), there has certainly been a kind of smug indifference to both the cost and the pain caused by a war that seems unending. The responsible move isn't to keep issuing supportive statements from a safe distance - the responsible move is to find a way to end the war. Where are the alternative plans? All of the world leaders are doing nothing but making self-oriented PR gestures.

It's one of the sad features of Britain today - loads of people (thanks to The S*n and the Daily Mail) know what the Licence Fee costs and resent it, but hardly any seem to know the billions that this war is costing, and thus don't seem at all concerned about it. Maybe everything out to have a clear price published - that might concentrate minds.

I can't be bothered to check the exact wording of Trump's remark but I seem to think I understood he was referring to starting the process, not the war specifically. Either way it really doesn't matter. Quibbling about wording or specific word useage can be a part of negotiation though I reckon it pointless. What's important is stopping people killing each other, as in Gaza and Israel and Lebanon.

JK2006 wrote:
Outrage as millions ask how Trump can say Ukraine provoked Russia into invading Ukraine. But - am I imagining it? Were there not years - over a decade - of troubles in Eastern Ukraine with protests from citizens who considered themselves Russian? Weren't there violent repressions? Even deaths? Or did that never happen and was it a peaceful place, rather like Ulster during the (imaginary?) Troubles?
I'm not familiar with the situation in eastern Ukraine and am not sure how reliable information about it from one side or the other might be, but this is what BBC verify says:

Fact-checking Trump claims about war in Ukraine

... Ukraine didn't start the war. Russia launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, having annexed Crimea in 2014.

The annexation came after Ukraine's pro-Russian president was ousted by popular demonstrations.

Russia also backed proxy forces who seized areas of eastern Ukraine, and it accused the new government in Kyiv of discrimination and genocide against Russian speakers. The International Court of Justice has rejected Moscow's claims. ...
Downing Street Cat wrote:
But also I will say, that Trump and Russia need to invite Zelensky to the table in any future discussions. That is also crucial. Shutting out Ukraine and Europe is madness.
The BBC have just been reporting that, according to Putin, there's no need for intermediaries between Russia and the US. Of course not. They won't want anyone interfering with them playing Trump. The Three Stooges don't exactly inspire confidence either. But I bet Putin, Lavrov, etc. are laughing. From the messages being put out by Trump and Co, I think Ukraine is going to be sold down the river, along with any security for the rest of Europe. But Trump will be allowed to emerge "victorious" and his acolytes will cheer.

That is possible as is the opposite, that Ukraine will not agree to stop the war under those conditions. It's also possible that a midway solution will emerge, allowing Putin to save face by keeping some territory and Ukraine to save face by allowing an "international strip" to be patrolled by international forces. I don't know enough about the detail and I don't accept much media coverage.

Jo wrote:
JK2006 wrote:
Outrage as millions ask how Trump can say Ukraine provoked Russia into invading Ukraine. But - am I imagining it? Were there not years - over a decade - of troubles in Eastern Ukraine with protests from citizens who considered themselves Russian? Weren't there violent repressions? Even deaths? Or did that never happen and was it a peaceful place, rather like Ulster during the (imaginary?) Troubles?
I'm not familiar with the situation in eastern Ukraine and am not sure how reliable information about it from one side or the other might be, but this is what BBC verify says:

Fact-checking Trump claims about war in Ukraine

... Ukraine didn't start the war. Russia launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, having annexed Crimea in 2014.

The annexation came after Ukraine's pro-Russian president was ousted by popular demonstrations.

Russia also backed proxy forces who seized areas of eastern Ukraine, and it accused the new government in Kyiv of discrimination and genocide against Russian speakers. The International Court of Justice has rejected Moscow's claims. ...
Downing Street Cat wrote:
But also I will say, that Trump and Russia need to invite Zelensky to the table in any future discussions. That is also crucial. Shutting out Ukraine and Europe is madness.
The BBC have just been reporting that, according to Putin, there's no need for intermediaries between Russia and the US. Of course not. They won't want anyone interfering with them playing Trump. The Three Stooges don't exactly inspire confidence either. But I bet Putin, Lavrov, etc. are laughing. From the messages being put out by Trump and Co, I think Ukraine is going to be sold down the river, along with any security for the rest of Europe. But Trump will be allowed to emerge "victorious" and his acolytes will cheer. Zelensky should be demanding to be involved in talks. And I agree with complete condemnation of these early shut doors. But that's just it. It's early doors. I think we will see Trump and co bringing Ukraine and Europe to the table. Compromises on both sides must be reached. Putin must withdraw. Territory agreed upon. Trump mouthing off about Zelensky right now isn't a good move going forward. The fact still remains Trump has made things happen. As opposed to sending more missiles which equals more War and more deaths. Nuclear weapons are the bargaining chips I'm afraid.

Trump probably thinks Poland started WW2.

Tom wrote:
Much as I dislike Trump (I guess that's the standard beginning), there has certainly been a kind of smug indifference to both the cost and the pain caused by a war that seems unending. The responsible move isn't to keep issuing supportive statements from a safe distance - the responsible move is to find a way to end the war. Where are the alternative plans? All of the world leaders are doing nothing but making self-oriented PR gestures.

It's one of the sad features of Britain today - loads of people (thanks to The S*n and the Daily Mail) know what the Licence Fee costs and resent it, but hardly any seem to know the billions that this war is costing, and thus don't seem at all concerned about it. Maybe everything out to have a clear price published - that might concentrate minds.

We are spending a similar monetary figure on Ukraine each year as is given to fund the entire BBC through the licence fee and have committed to keep doing so at a rate of £3 to £4 billion per annum.

It is not acceptable for us to have become almost immune and accepting of this level of killing over there in 21st century Europe.

But I cannot for a moment tolerate Trump calling Zelensky a dictator, that is shameful language. Putin is the dictator who has run sham elections and killed opponents. Nobody called Churchill a dictator when we didn't have a General Election in 1940 like we should have done by then. We were at war, it had to wait, our very survival as a nation was imperative. We then had the election the moment war ended. Same for Ukraine.

Rich wrote:
Tom wrote:
Much as I dislike Trump (I guess that's the standard beginning), there has certainly been a kind of smug indifference to both the cost and the pain caused by a war that seems unending. The responsible move isn't to keep issuing supportive statements from a safe distance - the responsible move is to find a way to end the war. Where are the alternative plans? All of the world leaders are doing nothing but making self-oriented PR gestures.

It's one of the sad features of Britain today - loads of people (thanks to The S*n and the Daily Mail) know what the Licence Fee costs and resent it, but hardly any seem to know the billions that this war is costing, and thus don't seem at all concerned about it. Maybe everything out to have a clear price published - that might concentrate minds.

We are spending a similar monetary figure on Ukraine each year as is given to fund the entire BBC through the licence fee and have committed to keep doing so at a rate of £3 to £4 billion per annum.

It is not acceptable for us to have become almost immune and accepting of this level of killing over there in 21st century Europe.

But I cannot for a moment tolerate Trump calling Zelensky a dictator, that is shameful language. Putin is the dictator who has run sham elections and killed opponents. Nobody called Churchill a dictator when we didn't have a General Election in 1940 like we should have done by then. We were at war, it had to wait, our very survival as a nation was imperative. We then had the election the moment war ended. Same for Ukraine. I mostly agree Rich, but the hypocrisy of European leaders including Zelensky I can't stand. Netanyahu has overseen the slaughter of 54000 people in just one year, and 75% of Gaza is annihilated. Europe including Zelensky has supported this action, very much wrongly identifying Gaza as the aggressors. A country that has been consistently targeted and its people grossly persecuted by Israel over 7 decades. I do not condone Putin or his actions. He's the Killer in the Kremlin. But the only way forward to peace is this way. I cannot think of any other way. Trump often speaks out of turn and thinks later. He wont find peace without Zelensky across the table. But credit please. Gazans have at least some hope now, and so does Ukraine. That's down to Donald Trump. I know. None of it is perfect. I detest Trump's policies including his immigration policies. I despise Musk. But hey, let's try and move forward. And peace for EVERYONE is paramount.

The absolute absurdity that Trump gives a flying fig about people dying.

He didn't during the Covid pandemic when 100,000s died due to his incompetence.

He didn't give a flying fig about the deaths of police officers trying to protect Congress. Or indeed that many of the Jan 6 mob wanted to lynch his VP rather he said Pence deserved it.

He hasn't said a single word about the reported 14000 Ukrainian deaths when Russia annexed Crimea or the 1000s of deaths since , rather he has blamed the victim while spouting absolute lies about Zelensky's popularity (whatever you think of him) and a complete lie that Zelensky stopped Ukraine elections when the entirety of the Ukrainian parliament voted to suspend elections while the Russia invasion continues.

Lie after lie after lie..it's never ending.

Trump is bizarrely ignorant of history and facts and he'll just as likely say the opposite tomorrow and people will still shill for him.

Your TDS is off the radar now.

Fact: Donald Trump has been harsher on Ukraine, Taiwan, the UK, the EU, Canada, South Korea, and Mexico than he’s ever been on China, Russia, North Korea, or the vile Taliban.

I do believe if he says the exact opposite tomorrow re any world matter his devoted followers will applaud him.

He has the undying support that a cult leader like Sun Myung Moon or a dictator like Vladimir Putin (although a goodly section of Russians do like a "strong man" dictator) can only dream of.

It's really quite bizarre !

JK2006 wrote:
Outrage as millions ask how Trump can say Ukraine provoked Russia into invading Ukraine. But - am I imagining it? Were there not years - over a decade - of troubles in Eastern Ukraine with protests from citizens who considered themselves Russian? Weren't there violent repressions? Even deaths? Or did that never happen and was it a peaceful place, rather like Ulster during the (imaginary?) Troubles?

You have slanted the narrative here a bit. Over 100 people were shot dead by the police earlier this century in a huge Kyiv protest because they wanted closer ties with the EU and the Russian-backed president didn't. The election had been rigged anyway (his opponent was poisoned) and the population were a bit agitated by this. It's not perfect there, but Ukraine does not deserve the constant interference from Russia and certainly not a hostie takeover. Trump blaming them for starting the war is a bit like blaming a rape victim for 'asking for it'.

The whole situation is nuts and Trump is merely box-ticking a weak 'peace settlement' in oder to maintain his narcissistic streak. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the deal means that Ukraine is forced to pay reparations to Russia. Maybe that's where the other 50% of land minerals are

hedda wrote:
The absolute absurdity that Trump gives a flying fig about people dying.

He didn't during the Covid pandemic when 100,000s died due to his incompetence.

He didn't give a flying fig about the deaths of police officers trying to protect Congress. Or indeed that many of the Jan 6 mob wanted to lynch his VP rather he said Pence deserved it.

He hasn't said a single word about the reported 14000 Ukrainian deaths when Russia annexed Crimea or the 1000s of deaths since , rather he has blamed the victim while spouting absolute lies about Zelensky's popularity (whatever you think of him) and a complete lie that Zelensky stopped Ukraine elections when the entirety of the Ukrainian parliament voted to suspend elections while the Russia invasion continues.

Lie after lie after lie..it's never ending.

Trump is bizarrely ignorant of history and facts and he'll just as likely say the opposite tomorrow and people will still shill for him. Agree Hedda, I do not believe he does have any empathy with humans, especially the poor ones. None at all. However, I am just comparing the current state of things compared with what went under Bidenism. Whatever his motives he's got the proverbial ball rolling and has jolted others into at least thinking about peace, compromise and stability. To be fair, that is what Presidents should be doing. It is a jigsaw right now, and we shall see if all the pieces fit together. I don't think some people understand the consequences of an all out war with Russia. End of days.

You always crack me up Hedda, with your wild claims.