I'm sorry but yet again much though I don't like Trump, thank God someone who dares speak his mind as opposed to the way media feels he should speak. He has a very good point. Ukraine would have been taken by Russia without US assistance. The time has come to say - FORGET IT! Talk and finish the killing (likewise Russia).

Zelenskyy is pissed as the begging bowl is running low and Trump will not take part in his roleplay. Zelenskyy turning up as a Temu GI Joe is pathetic.

JK2006 wrote:
I'm sorry but yet again humiliamuch though I don't like Trump, thank God someone who dares speak his mind as opposed to the way media feels he should speak. He has a very good point. Ukraine would have been taken by Russia without US assistance. The time has come to say - FORGET IT! Talk and finish the killing (likewise Russia).


Even ignoring the political/economic factors,this confrontation/abuse/humiliation attempt (seen worldwide) by Trump - has changed international peaceful debate for decades. Abhorrent.

It's not what you say, but how you say it.

That was a major low point for the American Presidency tonight and the treatment of Zelensky in public like that was where the Trump mask slipped in public view quite dramatically, and JD Vance shocked me too for his lack of control. It had all the appearance of a deliberate hit job engineered by the two of them.

I'm sure leaders have vigorous arguments with each other behind closed doors to themselves and officials. But what kind of fools would ever hand our enemies such a gift wrapped propaganda coup like that when we have the worst most murderous leader in Russia since Stalin now rubbing his hands with glee.

Instead of getting AF1 down to Florida for a weekend of golf I suggest Trump and his VP get their backsides over to Ukraine and have a good look around at the place and the people. Just like Boris Johnson was the first leader to do right at the start of all this.

Now on the basis of that argument Trump is considering stopping all aid to Ukraine, and he moaned about the way Biden left Afghanistan to the fate of the Taliban! He could be about to do something a hundred times worse.

Much as I dislike Starmer as PM, if Trump and Vance had treated him like that last night I'd have been appalled for our country being shown such disrespect.

Trump and Vance said the right things but in the wrong way and manner. Very uncomfortable watch and Zelensky arms folded and clearly having difficulty in making himself understood. Trump interrupting him and patronising him is not how to negotiate, JD Vance the same. It was crass and unprofessional.

I've never been so supportive of Zelensky as many others. Russia's invasion was wrong though I heard for years that many Ukrainians in the east wanted to be Russian and Ukraine treated them very badly. But the fact is - the killing goes on. It is time to stop it. Three years is enough. With all the support Ukraine has not succeeded in expelling Russia. War must cease. Peace must arrive. The US is entitled to say past support is enough. Trump is entitled to ignore the way it's always been done and to lose his temper on behalf of his citizens. Now we have a chance to pledge hundreds each to send children to fight for Ukraine. Will we? I doubt it. Where would the money come from? Take it from the NHS, from schools, from police? And why should we? Russia was in the wrong. I fully support Ukraine in this. But not enough to go and fight or to donate hard cash (I prefer that to look after the homeless on London's streets). Ukraine needs to stop killing and being killed. Make a deal with Russia. And to those who say Trump should have been nicer and more polite. Fair enough if you think that's what is important. I was delighted that he dared, yet again, to reject the conventional wisdom. Zelensky gets clapped by Parliaments but three years later his defence of his country, with massive international support, has totally failed. GET OUT NOW! Bring peace to UKraine. Stop killing.

Downing Street Cat wrote:
Trump and Vance said the right things but in the wrong way and manner. Very uncomfortable watch and Zelensky arms folded and clearly having difficulty in making himself understood. Trump interrupting him and patronising him is not how to negotiate, JD Vance the same. It was crass and unprofessional.

Zelenskyy was being rude asking for more, won't hold an election during a proxy war, no speech about ceasefire, he has received billions if not trillions from the UK and EU yet he is asking for more. Zelenskyy is a grifter.

Trump and Vance said the right things but in the wrong way and manner.

I respect people more if they are blunt and direct.

Green Man wrote:
Downing Street Cat wrote:
Trump and Vance said the right things but in the wrong way and manner. Very uncomfortable watch and Zelensky arms folded and clearly having difficulty in making himself understood. Trump interrupting him and patronising him is not how to negotiate, JD Vance the same. It was crass and unprofessional.

Zelenskyy was being rude asking for more, won't hold an election during a proxy war, no speech about ceasefire, he has received billions if not trillions from the UK and EU yet he is asking for more. Zelenskyy is a grifter.




When have elections ever been held during a war!!?? And this data might enlighten you as to the actual level of aid provided to Ukraine.


www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukrai...ine-support-tracker/

www.statista.com/statistics/1303432/tota...eral-aid-to-ukraine/

Blunt and direct is fine. So Zelensky had that right too. As I have said I think this is the right way to go, but there is a very fine line on being blunt and direct and being deliberately obtuse and aggressive. Vance shouldn't have been there. This should have been a conversation between the two Presidents. Zelensky had every right to ask questions about the future security of his country before agreeing to anything. It was like watching a hard sell from a couple of door to door rogue salesmen. Defying convention doesn't have to be like that. It was a fail.

Trump could have been direct without being rude and belittling. He could have been direct and rude off camera and achieved the same result. Statesman have been over history. Trump is doing nothing new apart from, of course, ensuring he is on camera.

And I am in the camp that this stuff very much does matter. The last thing our troubled confused world needs is more coarsening of "debate".

I am intrigued to see how this goes and yes the situation needs to be resolved now. However, to those running away with excitement about Trump shaking things up a word of caution.

He has as yet achieved nothing anywhere. And it is still possible this approach ends up causing more death and wars.

However, let's hope his approach works.

I didn't see any rudeness from Trump or even Vance, whom I have also criticised here.

The GI Joe cosplay midget is slime, he just wants billions for a forever war, he won't talk to Putin, yet Putin has tried to communicate with him.

Ukraine is one of the most corrupt countries in the West.

Zelenskyy is another globalist, the longer the war goes on the more he makes and longer he stays in power.

I've thought all along that Trump was looking for an excuse to wash his hands of Ukraine by presenting Zelensky with a deal he knew he'd reject. This performance for the cameras ("it'll be great television!") looks like a confected "final straw".

Green Man wrote:
I didn't see any rudeness from Trump or even Vance, whom I have also criticised here.

The GI Joe cosplay midget is slime, he just wants billions for a forever war, he won't talk to Putin, yet Putin has tried to communicate with him.

Ukraine is one of the most corrupt countries in the West.

Zelenskyy is another globalist, the longer the war goes on the more he makes and longer he stays in power.


Putin has communicated with him alright, by pouring his tanks, drones and troops over a sovereign international border into another democratic nation state and said I want your country for myself and to cease to exist. That's clear.

I bet Putin wants to now "talk". Because he's in a quagmire of his own making he can't get out of easily without losing face and possibly being overthrown back in Russia. Now Trump has handed him not just the propaganda but also renewed incentives that he might get everything he wanted back in 2022, and a whole lot more.

I don't normally listen to them but last night I watched the impromptu podcast of Alastair Campbell and Rory Stewart, they normally say little I agree with but I found myself in agreement with this one. Rory Stewart saying it's now possible if Trump follows through on his threats that Putin will take the whole of Ukraine right through to Moldova, and take Moldova too, and that Lithuania would be quite easy for Russia to grab back as well, a NATO and EU country. Then what? Article 5. But Trump has sounded flaky on activating it on the Baltic States. If he didn't then Putin would grab the lot, and who knows what else, NATO and the western alliance would be in ruins.

Campbell himself says here that he has only seen something like that with world leaders once before, and it was in private when Putin had a row with Blair. But that's the point, you thrash things out IN PRIVATE, you don't give our enemies/opponents such a treat in full view.

Just imagine invading Russian tanks and troops rolling through the streets of Kyiv in the near future, how the hell would that make Trump look and America, when we would all know he enabled it to happen.

Here's the Campbell/Stewart, The Rest Is Politics podcast from last night after this all kicked off.

www.youtube.com/live/P07-8ZLiChI?si=fdU4VXA45omILak3

Jo wrote:
I've thought all along that Trump was looking for an excuse to wash his hands of Ukraine by presenting Zelensky with a deal he knew he'd reject. This performance for the cameras ("it'll be great television!") looks like a confected "final straw".

The Ukraine midget will be asking for two-tier Starmer and Brussels for more handouts, yes we are that stupid to give him more money. It's another forever war, Trump is the only one encouraging peace not prolonging war.

Green Man wrote:
Jo wrote:
I've thought all along that Trump was looking for an excuse to wash his hands of Ukraine by presenting Zelensky with a deal he knew he'd reject. This performance for the cameras ("it'll be great television!") looks like a confected "final straw".

The Ukraine midget will be asking for two-tier Starmer and Brussels for more handouts, yes we are that stupid to give him more money. It's another forever war, Trump is the only one encouraging peace not prolonging war.

What's his size got to do with anything GM?

We could have had "peace" in 1940 and no war for another five years if we had surrendered or sued for an easy dishonourable peace in the face of Hitler's Germany then. One can only begin to imagine what Europe and the UK would be like today 85 years later if that had happened. Ruled by the Fourth or Fifth Reich by now, and without American help little chance of reversing the situation.

I don't doubt Trump wants peace but I sure as hell don't believe Putin does. He has no concern about human lives, even of those around him who he's bumped off too. Let's get real here. Many Russians are great and peaceable, Putin is murdering filth, and Trump wonders why Zelensky hates him, really?

I want to know why all leaders are short arses whilst Trump is over 6ft tall, even my daughters are taller than Kier, Zelenskyy, Rishi and Macron. It's pathetic to be honest.

I don't think we are being told the full truth about Putin, wasn't he supposed to have aggressive cancer during COVID-19 and on death's door?

Zelenskyy hates the Free World but loves the money, he is an actor and Ukraine and NATO poked the bear which is Putin. When you go to the wilderness you are warned not to touch bears.

It's not your physical stature that counts but your moral stature GM.

Anyway, short men can have very big balls.