Neither justifies the other. But international acceptance is far more shocking. For years I've said we should as a species - humanity - have done something about these two lunatic groups of madmen.

Why don't their Gods sort it out like in Greek Mythology? Oh, Yeah.

Green Man wrote:
Why don't their Gods sort it out like in Greek Mythology? Oh, Yeah.

The Torah says God commands the Israelis to kill the other tribes that inhabited the Land of Canaan but I don't think it's as ruthless as the Bible or basically the Old Testaments..

The Islamic religion says the Torah is a religious text.

Not sure how many Israelis are religious.

The very sad thing is Arabs are also a Semitic tribe which really only meant they spoke, like Israelis, a Semitic language.

Jesus was a peacemaker but they strung him up any way.

Maybe Pope Leo will be able to influence the dreadful war in Gaza.

I once read a book by the late Australian historian Barbara Thiering who was considered an expert on the origins of the Christian Church.

She claims many things in the Bible are misunderstood or badly interpreted or were incorrectly translated.

Two things I still remember-

She says the term "virgin" originally meant that a married women had not had her first child yet and it was not about sex.

Therefore Jesus was just Mary's first born and not some miracle birth.

Also that Jesus "walked on water"..there was tradition of Rabbis building a platform out into the sea just beneath the waves on which they walked and blessed the ocean for providing fish.

Therefore Jesus did not perform some miracle rather "walked on water" in the role of a Rabbi.

There was much more. But perhaps he was an alien.

I just love the passages in Ezekial where his "visions" sound for all the world like an encounter with a modern spaceship and figures in spacesuits.

The Bible is written by man, not God. Even though it's fictitious read the non canon books in the Catholic Bible. It's Brothers Grim on steroids.

hedda wrote:
I once read a book by the late Australian historian Barbara Thiering who was considered an expert on the origins of the Christian Church.

She claims many things in the Bible are misunderstood or badly interpreted or were incorrectly translated.

Two things I still remember-

She says the term "virgin" originally meant that a married women had not had her first child yet and it was not about sex.

Therefore Jesus was just Mary's first born and not some miracle birth.

Also that Jesus "walked on water"..there was tradition of Rabbis building a platform out into the sea just beneath the waves on which they walked and blessed the ocean for providing fish.

Therefore Jesus did not perform some miracle rather "walked on water" in the role of a Rabbi.

There was much more. But perhaps he was an alien.

I just love the passages in Ezekial where his "visions" sound for all the world like an encounter with a modern spaceship and figures in spacesuits.

Interesting post Hedda thanks and I may look that book up.

The translation from Hebrew into Greek has led to a lot of misunderstanding. Covet doesn't just mean sneaking a look at your neighbours wife; it means a destructive lust to take something from your neighbour.

I read a fascinating book on the life of Jesus by A.N Wilson.

I remember that the word for carpenter actually encompassed a range of trades, including construction. Rabbis (teachers) would often work in trade as well. When "tekton" was used to describe Jesus it may have just meant he was a teacher.

Yet a humble carpenter he will forever now be...

Green Man wrote:
The Bible is written by man, not God. Even though it's fictitious read the non canon books in the Catholic Bible. It's Brothers Grim on steroids.

The late historian Barbara Thiering also studied the Dead Sea Scrolls and claimed they deliberately instruct Christians to perpetuate myths about Christians alleged history.

She does have her critics though amongst other historians..

I have no idea if Jesus Christ was a real person but there are as much historical writings about him as any figure in alleged history.

If he was invented then I would love to know who invented him or indeed the Biblical texts are they would be one of the cleverest people on the planet ever.

He was an ego maniac, claiming to be a son of God like most cult leaders have said.

Green Man wrote:
He was an ego maniac, claiming to be a son of God like most cult leaders have said.

I don't think David Icke (or whoever...) has had quite the same impact on world history - turning everything on its head and shaping the modern world and thought - which even just at this level makes him a fascinating figure to my mind.

hedda wrote:
[quote]Green Man wrote:


If he was invented then I would love to know who invented him or indeed the Biblical texts are they would be one of the cleverest people on the planet ever.

Indeed Hedda. I'm not sure what I believe but the idea that a man came up with this stuff seems almost as unbelievable as a resurrection...

How do we know which text is legit and who wrote them? Most of the manuscripts are just fragments, incomplete, and the Bible has more plot holes and contradictions and BS, like the cheating spouse who you caught out having an affair and makes it up as she goes along, and you sit and listen, laughing to yourself, hoping she will turn to a pillar of salt like Lott's wife.

Richard Dawkins' books are great to read.

Green Man wrote:


Richard Dawkins' books are great to read.



They are indeed and I have read most of them; but I would no more turn to him for his take on theology than I would the Pope to explain how DNA is constructed.

So many make the mistake that science and religion are competing and incompatible realms. And that science has somehow resolved any big questions.

They are not and it has not. Despite the endless tiresome blurring presented as "rationality" from Hitchens to Fry all over You Tube.

Here is a question Dawkins, Hitchens, Fry (*) et al would hate in a debate (indeed Hitchens admitted it was the most tricky question he faced and he struggled to answer it - actually he dodged it, as he was adroit at doing - during a debate with the Oxford mathematician and Christian John Lennox):

If your brain is the product of unguided, random mutations in a meaningless Universe, on what do you base your confidence that it can rationally understand anything?

Why do you assume your brain is somehow for "truth" when evolution alone is oonly about survival?

The theist, of course, does not have a problem with this question because she believes the Universe is intelligible to us (to paraphrase Einstein this is the most incredible fact about the Universe) precisely because we are made in God the creator's image.

The atheist has no basis for believing that anything is intelligible to us; they simply have faith (see what I'm doing here?) that their brain can process the Universe rationally.

(I did not come up with this sadly but it is fiendishly brilliant if you think about it...)

* Perhaps JK could ask Mr Fry at his next lunch and post the response here!

However, I am, of course, equally interested in your thoughts on this question GM; or anyone else?

If your brain is the product of unguided, random mutations in a meaningless Universe, on what do you base your confidence that it can rationally understand anything?

Why do you assume your brain is somehow for "truth" when evolution alone is oonly about survival?

We only know what has been taught by others; we are told the sky is blue and grass is green. How do we not know the sky is green and grass is blue? Maybe dreams are the reality.

Maybe hot is cold and cold is hot. We need to question everything, but at the same time believe nothing.

I do believe humans are the weakest of species and the destructors of the planet and the universe, not the atom bomb and Musk's rockets.

When I went to Mongolia, I do admit I came home with an existentialist crisis. I have no regrets going! People read follow religion as they are lost, guided or gullible. People put more effort into following a rich football team but not on their freedoms and against tyranny. Football teams don't give a fuck about you, just your money, which money was first used goods and services. I guess bartering is only good as a man's word.

I saw more people fight over a bottle of Prime than I did fighting during the plandemic.

Green Man wrote:
[quote]

Maybe hot is cold and cold is hot. We need to question everything, but at the same time believe nothing.




How then do you come to believe that God does not exist GM?

Where was God(s) during the Holocaust, 9/11, he could have melted the Titanic iceberg, why didn't he save the Nelons plane when it crashed who were Christian singers? He could have turned Hitler and Pol Pot into a pillar of salt, even nonces.

God could have given you long golden locks, stopped all war and famine, it's his world, remember he created in six days?

Why didn't he make more talking snakes and save his Schizophrenic son?

Green Man wrote:
Where was God(s) during the Holocaust, 9/11, he could have melted the Titanic iceberg, why didn't he save the Nelons plane when it crashed who were Christian singers? He could have turned Hitler and Pol Pot into a pillar of salt, even nonces.

God could have given you long golden locks, stopped all war and famine, it's his world, remember he created in six days?

Why didn't he make more talking snakes and save his Schizophrenic son?

You have completely avoided the question I posed GM, and asked another question entirely; presumably because, like Hitchens et al, you have no answer to it.

If you respond to my point I will respond to your new point.

I answered your question and gave reasons why.

Green Man wrote:
I answered your question and gave reasons why.

My question was how you came to believe something (God does not exist) when you said we should believe nothing?

And your answer is that we in fact should believe something - God does not exist - because there is evil/wrong doing in the world?

Okay I will roll with it...

1. If there was only goodness in the world would this mean there was a God?

2. If there was mostly goodness in the world would this mean there was more possibility of a God?

2. What if there is a God and he is malevolent and acting entirely in character by not intervening in Auschwitz?

3. What if there is a loving God but she is not omnipotent and can't intervene in Auschwitz?

4. If there is a Christian God (the one you are assuming I mean) then he created a deeply moral Universe, with free will for mankind as a determinant condition. This means he will not intervene in Auschwitz.

5. If there is a Christian God then of course he would not have saved his son; the death of Jesus and resurrection was the whole point!

I dislike Dawkins as much as I dislike comedian Ricky Gervais (even though I loved The Office).

Their atheist views are ridiculous. No-one can actually know if there is an after life or not.

I went to a Gervais show years ago. His snide insults & unmitigated arrogance in the way he sent up & insulted Christians was so ugly.

I noted his religious "jokes" did not get the same response of the rest of his act which was good.

Of course they are entitled to their atheist beliefs but they arrogantly mock those who think otherwise when they couldn't possibly (like me) know the reality .

Of course even though I tend to believe in an afterlife, I can't prove it and may not be 100% sure. I'm as ignorant of what the reality might be and the next person.

I guess I'm an agnostic.

The vast majority of Christians do not shove their beliefs down people's throats. Not even The Pope. Yet the world looks on with fascination at the Catholic Church's theatrics.

There are over a billion Catholics and another billion Christians.

There are 2 billion Muslims..Millions of Buddhists. 100s of millions Hindus. Majority of these religious respect the other ones or like Muslims, claim The Bible is a religious text and Jesus was a prophet.

Are they all deluded? How could we know?

I will however get to know for sure pretty soon I think. I'm quite looking forward to it. So very tired of looking for parking spots in over-crowded Bondi.

I am more interested in what the Vatican is hiding, why they allow sexual abuse to swept under the rug, where the funds cae from to help fund Nazi Germany and helped Hitler and his croonies to move to South America.

You can do your own research, Hedda.