What a dark place we are in and JK is right.

Humanity is vastly over-rated and is getting worse.

A genocide being conducted in front of the entire world by a country where well over half the people not only support it but government ministers declare even worse and crueler methods of death should be used (even the awful Himler sought out more humane ways to mass murder to save the sensibilities of German soldiers)

Some cretinous woman is hailed almost heroine like when she urges other to mass murder dozens of people by fire but is also forgiven because she said she "didn't care" if it happened.

Now Donald Trump boastfully posts to social media vision of the US military blowing up a ship and killing those on board on the spurious claim they were drug dealers.

No evidence is presented. No Due Process where anyone accused of a crime is entitled to a fair hearing in a court.

And hardly anyone bats an eyelid.

The media let it slide, probably overwhelmed with the avalanche of horror that comes from the orange mouth of this petty would-be tyrant who threatens to take away the citizenship of a comedienne who insults him.

It's all very worrying.

Totally agree Hedda. Extra judicial murder now from this monstrosity.

No real reaction; so likely to become his new norm, and escalate.

If I am a liberal left-ard then so be it. It is a far superior position to his supporters...

I agree with you both. It's all very depressing.

I hadn't heard that he wanted to revoke Rosie O'Donnell's citizenship. I remember years ago her saying Trump's little mouth looked like an anus. That would explain a lot.

It's never a good look to side with drug dealers and runners who deliver death and misery daily. Where is the due process for all their victims? I believe Trump has now designated them and cartels as terrorists. Good, that's exactly what they are. Ideally they would have been caught alive and banged up and had the key thrown away, but they live by the sword and can die by it.

Let's not forget that Obama was fond of using drones to bomb many people out of existence during his Presidency and due process for those taken out was not high on his priority list. The ultimate being Osama Bin Laden who could have been captured alive during that raid and brought to America to face trial and be forever behind bars or get eventual judicial execution, but they had no intention of taking him alive, he was always going to be killed on sight and of course they dumped his body weighted down in the middle of the sea somewhere unknown to prevent a shrine. Few shed a tear or stood up for process there on any side.

I guess all previous posters on here are disgusted by Obama killing Bin Laden then, or does the fact he murdered 3,000 innocents in one go take him over the threshold of expecting due process?

Rich wrote:
It's never a good look to side with drug dealers and runners who deliver death and misery daily.

To believe that due process and human rights are important is not in any way to "side" with drug dealers.

Do I side with alleged murderers because I believe that the arresting Police Officer should not be able to arbitrarily decide on guilt and deliver the sentence?

Careful for the kind of world you wish for Rich: any of us could fall foul of it, completely innocently.

If Trump can label drug runners terrorists then he can label any suspected criminal a terrorist and have them killed on the spot. Comparisons to Bin Laden are absurd.

Shall we simply put a bullet in the head of the next impoverished Mexican woman who comes through Heathrow with a bag of cocaine; after the gangs have been at her and her family back home...?

Talking about snuff movies, will you talk about Frazzledrip, Hedda?

There is no evidence that they were even drug smugglers.

Just Trump's word.

And it was just a reasonably small sized motor launch allegedly heading for the USA over 1000 miles away?

This is murder. And the US president sanctioned extra judicial murder (mind you US presidents have been murdering for decades)

The frightening thing here is that Trump's word is just accepted without question despite his history of daily lies and that the world's media is simply not interested in
a world leader blatantly murdering 11 people.

The US is lurching into Fascism at a dizzying pace.

hedda wrote:
There is no evidence that they were even drug smugglers.

Just Trump's word.

And it was just a reasonably small sized motor launch allegedly heading for the USA over 1000 miles away?

This is murder. And the US president sanctioned extra judicial murder (mind you US presidents have been murdering for decades)

The frightening thing here is that Trump's word is just accepted without question despite his history of daily lies and that the world's media is simply not interested in
a world leader blatantly murdering 11 people.

The US is lurching into Fascism at a dizzying pace.

And 'Trump's word' means that it's more than likely a croc of shit.

Why are comparisons to Bin Laden absurd Wyot?

Just because his crime was VERY BIG? He wasn't given due process was he. That's a fact. He was summarily disposed of on the spot when found.

Was he entitled to due process in court or not, or did he get his just desserts with instant justice meted out by the US military?

Rich wrote:
Why are comparisons to Bin Laden absurd Wyot?

Just because his crime was VERY BIG? He wasn't given due process was he. That's a fact. He was summarily disposed of on the spot when found.



Yes scale of harm is a MAJOR factor.

That and the martyrdom and more lives lost if he had been taken into custody (assuming that had even been possible which I doubt).

Another big difference is what was known about him and his explicit intentions, capabilities and infrastructure.

This is why terrorism legislation must be used carefully and extra judicial action taken only in utterly exceptional, carefully prescribed, circumstances.

It is not there to shoot people dead who may be running drugs.

On your logic of "crime size" being irrelevant (or at least highly elastic) the state can murder anyone on suspicion of any crime.

We hand life and death to them.

That Bin Laden didn't get due process is irrelevant - in reality - to general crime and criminal justice responses. Let us live in the real world Rich.

Scale and Response is a marker of humanity which we throw away at our collective peril.

So not quite as principled as you first suggested are you.

You admit a crime can be bad enough to justify no legal process but just instant summary execution even if the culprit could have been apprehended and brought into custody alive to face charges, trial, conviction and prison/death sentence.

I wonder if Hedda or DSC agree? If you are highly principled on this issue you cannot have it both ways.

You are really going to open a can of worms by mentioning Bin Laden, Woyt.

Very serious claims that this boat was not drug smugglers but just chosen at random.

It seems very odd a small motor launch would have 11 people on it with drugs attempting to make an almost impossible 1500 mile (not 1000 as I previously said) trip to the US.

This was in Venezuelan waters and is a war crime but the public is being softened up here...the USA fully intends to begin attacks in Venezuela on the pretext they are attacking an alleged Venezuelan drug trade.

They intend to take down the popularly elected Maduro (in elections Jimmy Carter said were fair) and install their own chosen "president".

Of course the oil wealth has nothing to do with it.

Odd that the US does not attack the Mexican or Colombian cartels.

Rich wrote:
So not quite as principled as you first suggested are you.

You admit a crime can be bad enough to justify no legal process but just instant summary execution even if the culprit could have been apprehended and brought into custody alive to face charges, trial, conviction and prison/death sentence.

I wonder if Hedda or DSC agree? If you are highly principled on this issue you cannot have it both ways.

I can't have what both ways?

I disagree on principle that alleged drug runners can be justifiably murdered extra judicially. I would apply the same principal to shoplifters, jay walkers or alleged murders.

I said to compare a drug runner to Bin Laden is absurd because of the scale of harm difference, which may justify a different response.

I agree I can't have it both ways if I categorise Bin Laden and the alleged drug runner together, and thenapply different principals to them.

But it is you who categorise them together not me; and then apply the same principal to them: that they can be legitimately killed extra judicially.

I don't accept that Bin Laden adds anything either way to the debate on Trump's actions.
Sorry but I think bringing him into it is just disingenuous sophistry.