Boys and girls being gang-raped?

Why did he not do something when he was Home Secretary ?
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12140641

If this is the only case of pakistanis grooming young white girls, then it is unfair to make it an issue about the culture of Pakistanis, however if there are numerous other cases then it needs to be looked at.

I also think that Straw's comments about young white girls were insulting describing them as 'easy meat', or rather that pakistani men saw them as easy meat.

If you go to any town centre on a Friday and Saturday night you can see loads of scantily clad teenage girls ( and yes probably some as young as 12 and 13 ) wandering the streets outside nightclubs and pubs. Just watch some of the programmes on SKY 1 about this and you see it is an epidemic.

Are these girls white ? yes.

Are they dressed like our parents would say "hookers" ? yes

Are they having sex ? most likely

With older men ? most likely

and why ?

They see the money and cars and presents etc. that for many of them they dont get at home and their parents think they are on a sleepover with their mate from school when in fact both of them have given the same story to their parents.

are the Police aware of this ? yes

What happens ?

Well in one instance in Camden near a venue where I worked one guy from Brazil who was in his mid 20s and married picked up one of these teenage girls and had some sex in a doorway.......the girl went home told her mother ( the girl was around 13 but dressed like a 20 year old hooker ) who promptly reported it to the Police. The bloke had given his phone numnber to the girl and the police tracked him down and charged him with under age sex and he was convicted for 4 years. It was nearly 4a.m in the morning and this 13 year old was out on her own plying for sex with strangers. Of course the stranger took the full weight of the law.

Our society has sexualised little girls ( and boys to a lesser extent ) and they feel that they have to go out there as soon as possible to strut their stuff in an adult way. It is not the PAKISTANI culture that is wrong - it is WHITE UK culture and Jack Straw has basically shown he does not understand the way the UK is going.

Kids are sexualised via TV and videos and can buy dolls like Bratz and Pole Dancing kits and adult lingerie whilst still being under the age of 10 years old. It is really quiet sickening. Cameron said he would clean it up - but nothing has happened so far.

To blame another race or religion or culture as Jack Straw has done is really low. It eats away at the trust between races and there is no evidence from what I see out there on the streets that Pakistani men are picking up little girls anymore than any other group of men.

Until we respect the kids of today and let them grown up at a decent rate instead of making them mini adults and consumers this problem wont go away. I dont believe there are gangs out there of any race doing this and this particular case in the press is a one off BUT the Saturday night booze and sex culture needs to be looked at.

Perhaps some nightclubs and many inner city bars need to be OVER 21 YEARS OLD rather than 18 in order to curb the teenage pregnancy rate and the under age boozing and sex that takes place in doorways in the UK on the weekend.......

I realise some people believe people including teens should be free to sow their oats and be liberated......but my belief is that they are being exploited - not by the men who pick them up but by the society that allowed them to be on the street as "mini hookers" in the first place. Very sad state of affairs and as usual Jack Straw has no idea and is totally wrong.

he's a scumbag.

robbiex wrote:
If this is the only case of pakistanis grooming young white girls, then it is unfair to make it an issue about the culture of Pakistanis, however if there are numerous other cases then it needs to be looked at.

I also think that Straw's comments about young white girls were insulting describing them as 'easy meat', or rather that pakistani men saw them as easy meat.

It is not the only case, robbiex - there have been several similar cases in Rotherham, Sheffield, Oldham and Blackburn (and its not just young girls, boys are being raped and abused too).

Does that mean based on BR's evidence that if an underage girl is "dressed like a hooker" she bloody well deserves it?

BR wrote:
If you go to any town centre on a Friday and Saturday night you can see loads of scantily clad teenage girls ( and yes probably some as young as 12 and 13 ) wandering the streets outside nightclubs and pubs. Just watch some of the programmes on SKY 1 about this and you see it is an epidemic.


I don't know where you live BR, but girls as young as 12 and 13 are not hanging around nightclubs where I live. Also If teenage girls wish to be scantily clad, then why is that a problem. What do you wan't to do make everyone wear a burka. If people can't control themselves when they see a young girl with a short skirt on then the problem is with them not with the girl. We live in a free country, and girls have been dressing in such a manner for at least 40 years, since the mini-skirts of the 60s, and hot-pants of the 70s.

robbiex wrote:
BR wrote:
If you go to any town centre on a Friday and Saturday night you can see loads of scantily clad teenage girls ( and yes probably some as young as 12 and 13 ) wandering the streets outside nightclubs and pubs. Just watch some of the programmes on SKY 1 about this and you see it is an epidemic.


I don't know where you live BR, but girls as young as 12 and 13 are not hanging around nightclubs where I live. Also If teenage girls wish to be scantily clad, then why is that a problem. What do you wan't to do make everyone wear a burka. If people can't control themselves when they see a young girl with a short skirt on then the problem is with them not with the girl. We live in a free country, and girls have been dressing in such a manner for at least 40 years, since the mini-skirts of the 60s, and hot-pants of the 70s.

No they don't hang around nightclubs where I live either.

They're inside the clubs pissed as arts.

robbiex wrote:
What do you wan't to do make everyone wear a burka. If people can't control themselves when they see a young girl with a short skirt on then the problem is with them not with the girl. We live in a free country, and girls have been dressing in such a manner for at least 40 years, since the mini-skirts of the 60s, and hot-pants of the 70s.

Isn't that exactly what Jack Straw has been saying?

That, whereas Asian girls are strictly off-limits, there is a perception (perhaps driven by the number of unmarried young mothers ?) that white girls are "easy" and there to be preyed on ?

Quite a few important issues in this story methinks.

Firstly, it is pretty clear that asian/muslim/pakistani groups of men are disproportionately over-represented in this type of sexual abuse. This has not been openly acknowledged by the government, the news media, social services or the police before now, because of fears about offending sections of the community. A notable exception has been the British National Party which, whatever you might think about its motives, got the facts correct and were threatened with being prosecuted for inciting racial hatred. There seems to have been some kind of hidden agenda at work, not necessarily sinister: perhaps there was a very good strategic reason for denying, not publicising, or using the law to suppress the facts. Now the phenomenon has come out into the open a little more, perhaps we can have that scrutinised properly.

Secondly, yes there are girls and boys of young teen age and maybe even a little younger who are, or want to be, sexually active, sometimes with older partners, and behave accordingly. So society has a choice: do we want to let them be like this, or not?

If not, how do we compel youngsters not to explore their developing sexuality? Impose a curfew? Have laws about dress codes for certain ages? Impose age bands within which people are allowed to have social contact with each other? What society does now, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me, is make NO attempt to restrict the youths behaviour, while cracking down hard on their older partners.

If we do want to allow younger people to enter into sexual behaviour whenever they feel ready (and some sexual health advice for younger teenagers gives that impression), what responsibility will society take to ensure the experience is safe, fulfilling and generally positive as far as is possible? At the moment the answer seems to be "very little," especially considering the poor standard and depth - as well as lateness - of sex and relationships education in schools.

My own feeling is that the two approaches need to be reconciled much better. People's sexualities develop in different ways and directions, at different times, and people have good experiences (most of the time, ideally) but it's also necessary learn from mistakes. The law is an inappropriate tool to regulate relationships or guide people through sexual development. I believe that education is the key factor. If younger teenagers had received an adequate sex/relationships education, they would be able to decide for themselves that, for example, getting into cars with unknown older guys who offer them drugs is probably a bad idea. That frees the law to deal with the most serious sex crimes, rather than to continue its ever-expanding preoccupation with social tinkering, speech crimes and cases where the requirement for any actual evidence has been removed to boost conviction rates. So perhaps not quite problem solved, but I think that would be an improvement and a good start.

You appear to have changed the subject !

The subject is not whether its acceptable for young people to experiment - it's whether certain sections of society can exploit other (often illegal) sections of society (because their own kind wont play !)

In The Know wrote:
You appear to have changed the subject !

The subject is not whether its acceptable for young people to experiment - it's whether certain sections of society can exploit other (often illegal) sections of society (because their own kind wont play !)

I thought the subject was "Has Jack Straw opened-up a hornets nest?"

SJB wrote:
I thought the subject was "Has Jack Straw opened-up a hornets nest?"

Indeed it is.

It's about (mainly) Pakistani men taking advantage of young white girls (mainly because they cannot get sex with their own girls).

You seem to be turning it into a general discussion on whether sex for young people is acceptable. You seem to ignore that many of these girls are raped, and trafficked to groups of similar men.

You seem to ignore the fact that in the Muslim / Asian community a girl who "disrespected" her family / husband, would often face an "honour killing" - for doing exactly what these men expect to do with these white girls.

There is a massive difference between (all young people) experimenting sexually - and one older (alien?) culture taking gratification by exploiting, abusing and raping innocent girls from a different culture, who would most likely be killed if they happened to be the mens' own sisters or daughters.

Can you not see the difference ?

No they don't hang around nightclubs where I live either.

They're inside the clubs pissed as arts.


Highly unlikely, most clubs ask for id, even if you're around 30, let alone 13. Yet again the victims are taking the blame not the perpertrators (i.e. Pakistani men).

In The Know wrote:
SJB wrote:
I thought the subject was "Has Jack Straw opened-up a hornets nest?"

It's about (mainly) Pakistani men taking advantage of young white girls (mainly because they cannot get sex with their own girls).

You seem to be turning it into a general discussion on whether sex for young people is acceptable. You seem to ignore that many of these girls are raped, and trafficked to groups of similar men.

You seem to ignore the fact that in the Muslim / Asian community a girl who "disrespected" her family / husband, would often face an "honour killing" - for doing exactly what these men expect to do with these white girls.

There is a massive difference between (all young people) experimenting sexually - and one older (alien?) culture taking gratification by exploiting, abusing and raping innocent girls from a different culture, who would most likely be killed if they happened to be the mens' own sisters or daughters.


What you say may be an accurate reflection of how the situation is, or not. Who knows without open debate of the issue? In any case... do we do a) something about it or b) nothing? If you chose a) something, then what sort of something do you suggest?

A re-read of my post should help you to see that I'm taking a broader view, and while you're at it, note that I don't ignore the things you say I'm ignoring: I'm just discussing things at a less detailed level than you are. It's usually good practice to work from the general to the specific.

Being more detailed for a moment, I'm not so sure that murder stats support the assertion that muslim girls are "often" the victims of honour killings or "most likely [to] be killed" - in the UK at least, thank goodness. This is an element of multiculturalism that can stay in Pakistan thank you very much.

Also, if Pakistani men can't get sex with girls of their own race, why is it necessarily young white girls who become their targets rather than older white - or black - girls? That doesn't seem like a straight substitution to me. Why not try to pull in a club or on the net, or take a trip to the local emporium of gentlemanly relaxation? There must be a reason over and above a simple desire for sex why these gangs take the trouble and risk to operate in the specific way they do. I'm not sure what that reason is - perhaps that's the centre of the hornets' nest.

So do we do a) something or b) nothing about it? If you think a) like I do, then how about teaching kids at the appropriate age (just like I suggested) about the risks and responsibilities that come along with sexual behaviour. Then they'll be better able to recognise situations with dangerous or unpleasant potential and avoid them. At the moment, society does very little to equip youngsters to protect themselves but punishes the abusers. Good for crime figures and headlines, but not so good for the children. I'd prefer prevention rather than shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

I don't feel entitled to deem someone else's sex life acceptable or not: that area of life is a personal choice for the individual. But I do believe that we should ensure that young people can make informed, and I hope, good choices that lead to happy relationships, rather than ending up in a kebab like poor Charlene Downes.

I hope I've been a bit clearer.

SJB wrote:
Also, if Pakistani men can't get sex with girls of their own race, why is it necessarily young white girls who become their targets rather than older white - or black - girls?

I think the answer to that is pretty obvious !
Most men (not just Asian) like young girls - and I doubt that a bit of flattery from an Asian man would be enough to lure a grown white woman.

If you think a) like I do, then how about teaching kids at the appropriate age (just like I suggested) about the risks and responsibilities that come along with sexual behaviour. Then they'll be better able to recognise situations with dangerous or unpleasant potential and avoid them.

I still think you are "making excuses" for what is criminal behaviour. Rape is illegal !

I don't feel entitled to deem someone else's sex life acceptable or not: that area of life is a personal choice for the individual.

No it is not - the law is quite clear.
Just because some Pakis want sex with young girls does not mean we should ignore the problem.
We should prosecute them with the full force of the law (in order to protect young people from themselves).

""This is going on in every town and city in the UK."

The words of Martin Narey, chief executive of Barnardo's, which runs a number of projects working with hundreds of sexually abused teenaged girls.

Child sexual exploitation by older men who groom them - not on the internet, but on the street - is finally getting widespread public attention.

....

Mohammed Shafiq, chief executive of the Ramadhan Foundation, a Muslim youth organisation, became the first community leader to speak out in a BBC interview two years ago.

He is not afraid of raising the issue.

"Although there have been some cases of white men being involved in this sexual exploitation of young girls, most of the perpetrators are Muslim.

"There are some Muslims who think that as long as these sex gangs aren't targeting their own sisters and daughters the issue doesn't affect them... but the vast majority of Muslims find these actions abhorrent and disgusting," he said.

....

Sheila Taylor runs Safe and Sound Derby, a group that was instrumental in persuading girls to give evidence against Siddique and Liaqat.

Gang incentive

"This model of street-grooming is going on in many places. It is just that the recent spate of prosecutions against Asian men in the north of England and Midlands makes it look like it is concentrated in these communities," she said.

She believes some exploitation cases are harder than others to investigate, and is particularly concerned about the sexual abuse of young boys by older gangs of varied races.

Boys are simply less likely to talk about being raped, she says.

===

All of the above taken from - www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12140641

'Scuse format. I always cock up multi quoting. Italic quotes are from ITK.

Most men (not just Asian) like young girls - and I doubt that a bit of flattery from an Asian man would be enough to lure a grown white woman.

Those are quite sweeping generalisations. Is there anything to support them other than the anecdotal impressions we might receive from the news media or your personal view of the relative attractiveness of Asian men and adult white women?

I still think you are "making excuses" for what is criminal behaviour.

I did no such thing. My concern is primarily protecting and improving the welfare of the youngsters involved. Let me suggest a driving analogy. I'd much prefer to see fewer prosecutions for causing death by careless driving because of increased standards of driver training and testing. Similarly, I'd like to see fewer prosecutions of this nature because youths are better able to avoid the situations.

What I'm definitely NOT suggesting (but I suspect you think I am) is that young people should be educated about these risks and then if they choose to get involved anyway, the culpability of the asian gang members is therefore reduced. No, no, no.

the law is quite clear.

Yes, but the mixed messages that young people are getting from society are not so clear. And I stand by my view that the law is an inappropriate tool for regulating people's sex lives, and that a thorough sex and relationships education should enable young people to enter into sexual activity safely and happily when they feel ready, whenever and with whomever that may be.

Just because some Pakis want sex with young girls does not mean we should ignore the problem.
We should prosecute them with the full force of the law (in order to protect young people from themselves).

Prosecuting the abusers AFTER the events have occured does not protect the girls who have just been abused, you do see that don't you? Like posting a new lollipop lady on a blackspot doesn't protect the kid who was run over a week ago. I'd much prefer more preventative action. Let's not be naive: some youths start wanting to try sex pretty early and there's not much we can do to stop them, but society can help them to stay physically, emotionally and sexually safe by educating them about threats like these Pakistani gangs, not talking to strangers, always use a condom etc etc.

There's another similar story here news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Nine-A...eenage_Girls_For_Sex

It's notable for how openly it's stated that it was nine Asian men who allegedly abused white girls. This has always been glossed over in the past, perhaps because it might seem *gasp* racist... Now apparently it's a good story so we will doubtless see a many more such cases of it reported in the coming weeks. And therein lies the danger of relying on the news media for our world view: we see only the "good stories" rather than forming views based on more soundly collected data.

SJB wrote:


There's another similar story here news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Nine-A...eenage_Girls_For_Sex

It's notable for how openly it's stated that it was nine Asian men who allegedly abused white girls. This has always been glossed over in the past, perhaps because it might seem *gasp* racist... Now apparently it's a good story so we will doubtless see a many more such cases of it reported in the coming weeks. And therein lies the danger of relying on the news media for our world view: we see only the "good stories" rather than forming views based on more soundly collected data.


Children as young as 10 are being sexually exploited by organised gangs of men in cities across the UK, a leading charity says.

Barnardo's says it is working with more than 1,000 children who have been groomed, abused and trafficked for money, and the problem is growing.


all above from - www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12202489

The problem has NOT gone away.