say what you want about him but under his leadership Venezuala went from 71% living in poverty to 23% (UN statistics)during his 14 years and I reckon that puts most Western leaders in the shade.

Perhaps his Bolovarian tendencies were more important/relevant - absence of Human Rights maybe....

Ask Amnesty International, or see their website.

Why quote one statistic, hedda - which was achieved by outside agencies?


Death by CIA, perhaps? Another Zero Dark Thirty? Like BL, who would blame them?

He was a vile dictator. Perhaps the most pernicious thing about him was his ability to get people to vote for him. This way he could hold free and fair elections and claim to be a democratic leader.

Ah Ben I wondered when someone would suggest he was killed by the CIA - a joke to start with; then a conspiracy theory; then a possibility? My take? Well it would be no odder than the death of that Russian in Grosvenor Square or the poisoned umbrella incident.

Watching the Venezualan reaction, I'm tempted to be more pro than anti Chavez. But then these extreme politicians polarise opinion. I'm still far from convinced by the negative press on Gaddafi.

A very interesting interview on the BBC conducted some time ago (2010) by Stephen Sackur (HardTalk)... it should be reshown on Prime Time BBC1.

Venezualan elections were free and fair and most certainly fairer than US elections- untainted by big money.

I take former US president Jimmy Carter's word for that as he oversaw elections and commented that in fact, both sides of politics acted fairly.

people making quite ludicrous and ridiculous statements about Chavez supporting dodgy dictators- the very same dictators supported by the US & UK until they decided they could be dispensed with.

Although we still support Saudi Arabia etc..total dictators. And the hideous Pinochet.

Rubbish written about his actions with the media...all newspapers are owned by Murdoch style creeps and print lies daily...one government news outlet to balance.

Love how outsiders condemn a man who raised the standards of over 50% of his people..not done by the UN...done by Chavez's policies using oil money.

You want vile politicians- look to Westminster..full of Iraqi and Afghani murderers and war mongerers.

Why totally ignore the views of Amnesty International and the Human Rights Agency?

Ben 9 wrote:
Why totally ignore the views of Amnesty International and the Human Rights Agency?




he wasn't a saint but you must put things into perspective.

there were human right's abuses but how much of that are actions of dreadful people in Venezuala who had power over others?

it wasn't official government policy...or...do we condemn David Cameron, Gordon Brown, Tony Blair for the actions of British soldiers torturing and mistreating Iraquis as being revealed today ?

We support dictators now and in the past- why are we not to blame for their actions?

The US media blames Chavez for all crime in Venezuala yet ignores the crime rampant in the US. Also runs idiotic stories claiming Chavez jailed reporters : he did no such thing : he sued 2 Murdoch style hacks for libel ...they were found guilty by juries and a judge jailed them under the previous regime libel laws still in force.

Myths are thus born.

I also just read a UN report fiercely condemning the Australian government treatment of refugees calling it inhumane and illegal...ignored.

there are elements of racism about reports on Chavez but nothing can change the fact he raised the living standards of over 50 % of the people.

I dont know enough about Chavez to make a definative comment, but do slightly suspect (as he's loony left) that when the "reckoning" comes he'll have spent (and borrowed) zillions with absolutely no end result whatsoever.

In The Know wrote:
I dont know enough about Chavez to make a definative comment, but do slightly suspect (as he's loony left) that when the "reckoning" comes he'll have spent (and borrowed) zillions with absolutely no end result whatsoever.

yes obviously you don't know much about him.

spending billions of oil income ( no need to borrow ) building hundreds of thousands of new homes, providing electricity and water supply to them, building thousands of health clinics (staffed by thousands of Cuban doctors and nurses training locals), building thousands of 'family' restaurants which have become self-supporting (ie while not profit making do generate operating income ) would be viewed as "spent zillions with absolutely no end result" by the upper 1% of the former ruling class who formely had a source of cheap labour but millions of Venezualans (and the majority) obviously think the opposite.

some true facts and figures of the evil Chavez socialist "regime" for ITK:

# In 2005, Venezuela achieved the goal set by UNESCO to declare a country an illiteracy-free territory; 96% of adults and elders know how to read and write.

# 24,884,567 Venezuelans (88.9% of the population) now have free health care

# Unemployment has been reduced by 50% from 12% to 6.1% by 2009.(UK rate 7.8%)

# In 2007, the Venezuelan minimum wage became the highest in Latin America (US$372). Workers receive a monthly bonus for food amounting to over US$139. Pensions increased to the minimum wage.

# Venezuela has the fourth largest economy in Latin America after Brazil, Mexico and Argentina....20 consecutive quarters of growth...economy has grown by 526.98% since 1998.

# and one beloved by ITK :
The public debt dropped from 73.5% of the GDP in 1998 to 14.4% in 2008, placing the national deficit as one of the lowest in the World.

In 1998, a debt of $3 billion was paid off to the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and to the World Bank (WB).

In The Know wrote:
I dont know enough about Chavez to make a definative comment

For once ITK, you're absolutely correct.

But hedda, why digress to the UK, USA and Australia? We are typing/talking about Venezuala - about which Human Rights Watch (a totally independent body, monitoring human rights in every country) say, for example, 'prison violence and police abuse remain serious problems'.

Just take the time to look at the HRW website, to see graphic details of human rights abuses in Venezuala.

And, yes, such abuses occur in many other countries; these are also set out on the site.

hedda wrote:
some true facts and figures of the evil Chavez socialist "regime"

OK, Google is your friend, hedda - and, yes, Chavez did make some improvements; particularly, relating to poverty.

But at what cost?

19,336 people were killed last year in Venezuala - 53 every day, says the busy Venezualan Violence Observatory. This makes it one of the most dangerous countries in the world with an annual murder rate of about 67 per 100,000 inhabitants. (The USA's murder rate is 4.8 per 100,000 inhabitants).

All brought about (together with the Human Rights problems) since Chavez came to power 14 years ago!



Not much good having food on the table when you're dodging bullets.......

All of which tends to support my growing opinion that strong government produces very good and very bad things whereas weak government (like most democracies) hits a more level strata with less extremes but constant ordinariness.

Ben 9 wrote:
hedda wrote:
some true facts and figures of the evil Chavez socialist "regime"

OK, Google is your friend, hedda - and, yes, Chavez did make some improvements; particularly, relating to poverty.

But at what cost?

19,336 people were killed last year in Venezuala - 53 every day, says the busy Venezualan Violence Observatory. This makes it one of the most dangerous countries in the world with an annual murder rate of about 67 per 100,000 inhabitants. (The USA's murder rate is 4.8 per 100,000 inhabitants).

All brought about (together with the Human Rights problems) since Chavez came to power 14 years ago!



Not much good having food on the table when you're dodging bullets.......



so are you suggesting that Chavez has them all killed?

do you know the facts about these murders ?..

"Not much good having food on the table when you're dodging bullets."..go and tell that to the approx 77% of Venezualans that now do have food on the table.

yet our great ally the USA killed approx 750,000 Cambodians and possibly a million Vietnamese in the 60s...we and they put sanctions on Iraq and possibly caused 500,000 children's deaths...we possibly killed one million Iraqis since 2003 and displaced 3 million...

we supported Ghaddafi ( Blair in the desert ?) until we helped kill him.

western media is the the most corrupt and controlled propaganda machine on the planet yet people waffle on about Venezualan's private media (equally corrupt).

perhaps we should put our own house in order before we criticize the late Chavez.

I could probably site as many Google reports as you Ben but logic tells me that trying sheet home blame for crime to Chavez is simply incredulous.

It just isn't credible that crime rose during Chavez's tenure.

Why would it when things were ten times financially worse before he came to power?

what is probable is that the governments and media (run by the wealthy) didn't give a stuff about crime in the barrios and jails before Chavez.

And Google is not your friend..it's a giant octopus that publishes every wacko theory on the planet and gives them credibility.

## re: the attitudes in SA about crime in the middle and upper classes : I have a female friend who is very rich and powerful in Columbia.

She's invited me to stay in her beautiful villa and I'm trying to find the time.
We often talk about the politics and crime in SA..she is an intelligent and worldly woman but simply does not recognise any problems outside her own class.
A few weeks ago I said "I'm looking forward to visiting but another friend tells me despite all the changes there it's still dangerous"...she said.."no problem, I have beautiful small pistols for guests..if you have to shoot someone , no problem...and better to shoot a mugger, less problems filling out papers and so on"

hedda wrote:

It just isn't credible that crime rose during Chavez's tenure

Nearly 20,000 people were murdered in Venezuala last year.

Please, hedda, look at these websites - CNN Archives, HRW, Amnesty or Fredom Watch.

I was in Caracas last year where 3,500(!) murders took place.

In peace-time, no other country has similar statistics.

WHY dispute the facts?

CNN spins as much propaganda flannel as Fox News but in a more subtle manner, but that aside..

I dispute no facts just the spin put on them and on balance Hugo Chavez achieved miracles for the vast majority of Venezulans during his tenure.

I admire your bravery in going to Caracas and perhaps you had to dodge bullets every time you sat down for dinner so may speak from personal experience.

on edit :

now I'm worried Ben.

After checking out 'Freedom Watch'...many of it's libertarian statements sounded very familiar and then I discovered a video by Chris Berg.

It's a front for the right wing Australia outfit the Institute for Public Affairs which is funded by the likes of Rupert Murdoch and Gina Rinehart (who advocates for African level wages for Aussies and wants nuclear bombs dropped in the Outback so she can find more uranium)..

please revise your homework.

hedda wrote:
please revise your homework
.

Ok, hedda - if you will stay on point, about Chavez and Venezuala.

Ben 9 wrote:
hedda wrote:
please revise your homework
.

Ok, hedda - if you will stay on point, about Chavez and Venezuala.




and indeed I have and refer to my opening post which is concise and accurate.