... at Chatsworth.

Bright, not as cold as expected, and some snow flurries too !

In The Know wrote:
... at Chatsworth


Really a modern sculptor...Bill died only about 3 months ago.

Very good ... but didnt venture to see the outdoor exhibits (too cold !) so looked at the dozen "new" Rembrandt sketches on display instead.

I was at the opening of Chatsworth last year (appx same date) and remember the garden being full of daffodils but hardly saw any this year. Have others noticed that spring appears to be late ?

In The Know wrote:
Very good ... but didnt venture to see the outdoor exhibits (too cold !)

Going to a Turnbull exhibition - and not viewing his outdoor sculptures (like the Large Horse) - is like going to Wimbledon and not watching tennis.

Still, Peregrine - the Duke and owner of Chatsworth - knows a bit about art; he's on the Sotheby's board and, recently, sold a Raphael there for almost £30m.

Yes; no sign of my daffs here in London yet either; they must have anticipated today's snow!

Ben 9 wrote:
Peregrine - the Duke and owner of Chatsworth

Stoker (to his friends) .... and Chatsworth is owned by a charitable trust set-up when the 10th Duke could not pay death duties.

Stoker and Amanda pay nominal rent to the trust for their apartment.

In The Know wrote:

Stoker and Amanda pay nominal rent to the trust for their apartment

The Duke is one of the UK's richest men - most of whom use tax avoidance schemes: Such as family and charitable trusts. Rich lists show Perie with a c£750m net worth in this country.

Of course, there's also the offshore assets - such as a huge/beautiful castle near Waterford in Ireland (a totally diferent tax domocile).

His family, landowners with money (little else), just bought the 'Duke of Devonshire' title - simply because it was the only one for sale that day! They had/have nothing to do with Devon; most property is in Derbyshire although they seem to own a lot around Eastbourne. For instance, Devonshire Park - a massive central Eastbourne site which is the centre of women's tennis in the UK.

Some titles were earned in battle - Marlborough and Wellington.

Not that of Devonshire, although Perie won't deny that possibility.............

In The Know wrote:
Ben 9 wrote:
Peregrine - the Duke and owner of Chatsworth

Stoker (to his friends) .... and Chatsworth is owned by a charitable trust set-up when the 10th Duke could not pay death duties.

Stoker and Amanda pay nominal rent to the trust for their apartment.

Quite a bargain (it cost £600 !) - but of course the land would have been well known to Bess as her step father (Ralph Leche) lived there, and one of Bess's sisters (Alice) had married Ralph's nephew.

In The Know wrote:
and one of Bess's sisters (Alice) had married Ralph's nephew


I think you'll find that Alice married Ralph's son.

Ben 9 wrote:
In The Know wrote:
and one of Bess's sisters (Alice) had married Ralph's nephew


I think you'll find that Alice married Ralph's son.




Wrong ! (but a common mistake)

Bess's parents were John Hardwick and Elizabeth Leake
After John died Elizabeth married again - to Ralph Leche ...
this 2nd marriage produced 3 children - all daughters.

Bess's sister - Alice - married Francis Leche (Ralph's brother's son)

Thank you ITK, but if you don't mind, I'd prefer to believe the view of well known/published historians - such as Irene Preston.

Just Google her name - with Bess of Hardwick - and you'll be directed to her article, stating that Alice married Ralph's son.

Ben 9 wrote:
Thank you ITK, but if you don't mind, I'd prefer to believe the view of well known/published historians - such as Irene Preston.

Just Google her name - with Bess of Hardwick - and you'll be directed to her article, stating that Alice married Ralph's son.



Googling mostly supported ITK's version. Why do some historians think there has been a mistake?

honey!oh sugar sugar. wrote:
Googling mostly supported ITK's version. Why do some historians think there has been a mistake?

Sugar, there hasn't.

Ben 9 wrote:
honey!oh sugar sugar. wrote:
Googling mostly supported ITK's version. Why do some historians think there has been a mistake?

Sugar, there hasn't.



*sighs* Its "Honey" please.
Mary Lovell's account is different. Nephew or not, it is a very interesting story that I was previously unaware of.

honey!oh sugar sugar. wrote:
*sighs*
Mary Lovell's account is different.


... and correct

Thats what happens when you "google" and rely on the first account presented - by some biddy who runs an Age Concern history group LOL !

honey!oh sugar sugar. wrote:
it is a very interesting story that I was previously unaware of.

It would be very, very hard to beat me on Medieval history, Honey

For example -

The Ralph Leche mentioned above, had another brother (William) who lived in Chesterfield (only about 8 miles from Chatsworth).

This William is listed as one of the 10 largest landowners in Chesterfield in the 1543 Lay Subsidy Rolls, with land valued at £5 0s. My ancestor - Edward Eyre (described as "parish gentry") - had land valued at £30 0s !

Source - Public Record Office, Kew - box E 179/91/144

In The Know wrote:
very, very hard to beat me on Medieval history

If you say so ITK...............

But Alice married Ralph's son!

I have given the Preston view - and can give many more.

Can you......... except your own?

Ben 9 wrote:
I have given the Preston view - and can give many more.

Go on then .........

Its not a matter of "views" (even by some old biddy who just keeps the seniles amused at their weekly meetings !) - its a matter of facts, documents, archives.

In The Know wrote:
some old biddy who just keeps the seniles amused at their weekly meetings !

No, Ms Preston is a reputable and experienced historian who has published widely (and therefore subject to scrutiny and dispute) - but, as you are a retired chappie ITK, you may have come across her at one of her lectures in Derbyshire?!

Finally, on Alice Hardwick(e) who married her stepbrother, the son of Ralph Leche - I would refer you to the widely available work (including google) of historian Kathy Emerson and, also, genealogydotcom; both sources will confirm that Francis Leche was Ralph's son.

But, will these sources be unacceptable to you also?

some old biddy who just keeps the seniles amused at their weekly meetings !

Next week, dont forget to bring your old Christmas cards and I'll show you how to make a calendar from them.

The following week its Frank and rug-making; then Betty with "How to cope with incontinence"

No, Ms Preston is a reputable and experienced historian who has published widely

Strange, then, that the No 1 site which pops up on Google is her Age Concern group at Stockport !

www.createwrt.net/Irene_Prestons_Histori...storical_Writing.htm

Go on, readers ... try it ... just type in Ralph Leche into Google and see where he got this rubbish from !