I won't go into specifics, but I thought this was an interesting debate to have: I was in touch with a company that produces high-profile programmes for a well-known channel in the US. Fast-forward: they don't pay "upfront" fees for the music. The musicians "get paid" in performance royalties through ASCAP, etc. Plus the promotion of being on a big show.

One of the acts I work with starting hopping up and down with excitement until I pointed out the obvious: * we're increasingly reliant on licensing fees in the biz, as record sales are slumping;
* we spend time trying to negotiate actual cash for use, so why weaken that position;
* the promotion is useless if you don't have a release/availability in the US - otherwise, the deal just looks good in your CV;
* has anyone actually made any money from cable payments to ASCAP/BMI? I'd love to hear it's true, but the royalty statements from the composer of a cartoon show I know tells me differently.

So guys, am I being too hard-nosed? Who would go for it? Is "anything better than nothing", or is this anything actually a sure way of guaranteeting nothing in the future?

At least the production company did not ask for the publishing ...

Well Michael, my accountant would not say you are being hard nosed, I got told off for being exactly the opposite for putting more into the bands than my own pocket.
Our download/cd sales drip in, but it`s the PRS we are waiting for, the rest of the recouping comes from gigs.

Re;"we spend time trying to negotiate actual cash for use", so many acts don`t seem to realise that us guys need paying as well.

After this years accounts we have dropped all that even question my wage.
From what I`ve read above, it all looks ok, just make sure you log your own performances, as how convenient it is(not!)when the station doesnt.
I tracked one of my TV themes`plays via a paper once and claimed for it. I don`t believe I would have got paid otherwise.

Gents, I'm disappointed!

I thought you'd join me in my righteous indignation. But instead, if I read between the lines, you would be willing to go along with this as a deal.

I've just had an idea: I'm in the wrong end of the business. If people are willing to give stuff away, I should join a TV production company and use free music to make my programmes. Then I can get invited to trade fairs and pontificate about "synergies with the music business".

Mart, you're right about being careful about the time sheets and logging plays. But my other problem is how do I do that from this side of the pond?

I think I'll just have to thank him for this opportunity to give something away for free.

This is the problem Michael.

When you're starting off, almost ANYTHING you can get to gain further ears for your music is appreciated - and needed.

You never know where that pebble will begin rolling - from a brief snippet on a cable TV show being heard to someone who can make "things" happen trawling through random MySpace sites (as I did to find ORSON).

Without that start, you may never break (as Orson failed to do for 8 years).

So it's hard to say NO to enthusiasm.

If your music is really good, it's worth getting almost anything to grab that hoped for kick start.

You can have the best single / album in the world, but without that initial kick start of interest, it can fall by the wayside very easily!!

About logging plays across the pond Michael.
They do seem to more reliable than over here at paying out the royalties, but who can say what goes missing, we have to sleep some time.
A couple of mates of mine do rather well on USA royalties, including one who we are yet to find the song he gets paid for in the film mentioned.
I honestly believe the UK is worst for royalty reporting though, I even had Carribean payment for plays, sent to me, they wern`t mine, but the name was similar on the track listing!
Actually, "wrongly paid out royalties", is a thread in itself, but I suspect I could make myself very unpopular with tales!

I hear what you're sayin' but you gotta get the green coming in from the get-go, it's a business after all.

I'm with Michael on this one. In fact it is now time artists ditched the notion of 'promotional value' and concentrate on getting actual cash for their music.

Perhaps we should start advertising as this would ensure that only material that 'pays' will be produced.
Dare i say that radio has done music no favours as it is primarily responsible for the 'free for all' attitude amongst listeners without paying proper dollars for its usage.

Music usage must be paid for. We have spent thousands to make it now if you want it you should pay for it. End of story. Sadly record sales are dying out and will eventually die out completely as a meaningful way of making money for artists so start thinking in terms of
licensing even on your own websites.

If you are playing, you should be paying.

The trouble is KZ, for every act that bonds together with others to keep music paid for, their is always one that seeks it as an opportunity to make a name for themselves whilst everyone else has agreed that it`s a no deal situation.
I can illustrate this well in a live well paid gig situation, in which all the acts stuck together and charged the same rather large fee.I was happy.
Then one act decided to a free gig for them, to get in on the action, and took a series of gigs throughout the year on door money only.
The result? It`s now another pay to play venue.
We can stand up for our payment rights as much as we like, but as long as there are wannabees and part-time writers and performers, they will always shoot us and themselves in the foot.
One day, we may not have to look after number one, but I doubt it sadly.

In light light of some of the above posts I'd be very interested on people's opinion of the statement:

"No deal is better than a bad deal"

Cheers.

It's always easier to give advice than to do the biz, I know. But I've always heard that the only way out of a price war is to wage a quality war. Leave the venue to stew in wannabe nights and see how long they last. From my freelancing days, you had to learn pretty fast about the expression "deadbeat client". They're the ones you spend time courting when in fact there is no money to be made whatever way you look at it.

The time would be better spent researching people that pay good money for a job well done.

And if bands want to play freebies, stand outside the venue afterwards and hand out CD-Rs with your music and your next concert dates. It takes 30 minutes rather than half a day plus a van rental and curries all round.

To come back to the original debate, I have a problem giving music away when I've been beating people up to add another $1000 onto the fees for something similar. How can I go back to them if they find out I'm giving my goods away to someone else (with actually less promo value)?

Having said all this, each deal should be appraised on its own merits. I wouldn't like to get too hard-and-fast on this. If it was a slot on Jonathan Woss, I might be swayed.

Interesting debate.

The problem is, Martin - that all these "bands" who demand to be paid a large fee are probably simply not worth the money ! If they were (and could result in bums on seats), then promoters would be queuing up to pay them whatever they demand.

The problem with most of these bands is that the punters are simply not really interested. It could be band A or band B - as long as there is some background noise then that's all the audience wants.

If it were anything different - then the audience would be queuing for days to buy the tickets !

Ah yes but Michael, you have drawn you`re bench mark at BBC Radio 2, many people draw them at the Dog and Duck.
These days, I see all my game plans as rungs on a 24 runged ladder for each project, and we "high five" here, when I announce we have achieved another rung.
You must call me one day by the way,(or vice versa) I find your projects, writings and ideas very interesting.
Good thread well done.

Well my solution would be a 'proper' Sandi Thom, style we played in our basement because the venues are all ripoff merchants and charlatans. Alternatively put on shows in schools or other places where there is a genuine 'sales' opportunity.

I think regardless of where you are in your development, once you start thinking, sales, product, ROI etc ok maybe not in such blatant terms, your quality goes up and you can create your own opportunities. We are in the Video age, the Youtube generation or a 'paying' variant of it. Come on guys do not stand for it. If it don't pay, then don't play.

No deal is better than a bad deal. You will get stress, be tied up for years and you cannot go and create your own reality when stuck in a bad deal. At least with no deal you have independence and can try doing something else.

Interesting one about fees though guys as picked up by MM.
Don`t forget they can be counter productive as well, i.e,when a musician/producer/manager stays with an act for the money and is not a 100% behind the projects, but a 100% behind the cash they recieve.
I am very wary of the "Yeah your stuff is great and how much do I get paid?" brigade.
The "real" contributors on projects are overjoyed when they recieve monies which they did not expect.
Music is foremost.
A very prominant manager once said to me, "Well thats` it then Mart, you can`t make any money, just be a cult hero!"
I was very upset by this at the time, particurly when his act signed to Polydor and charted.
However, I would love to chat with him, which I can`t because he sadly died, just to say he was right in some ways and wrong in others, I have ticked over for years in music, his band failed on the third single, and that was it.

Mart wrote:
...
You must call me one day by the way,(or vice versa) I find your projects, writings and ideas very interesting.
Good thread well done.
That would be easier if I knew your number, etc. Why don't you sign in and create a signature? It really is much easier for everyone concerned. I notice you're signing Mart now. Is that Martin of the esteemed K?

Incidentally, one label has promised me material for the a/m project (it's a very niche thing, so I don't think anyone here missed the op of a lifetime). No commission for me, just being nice to someone that I hope will return the courtesy at a later date (I'm promised a drink at Cannes - make that a Gaviscon-to-go).

I think I have correctly logged in now Michael, we had some problems with it, so I stopped doing it on my old comp.
I need to check the message but yes it is me.
I`m still having trouble getting the signature to work though.Bare with me.