if it's pay to play, don't bother. Anything with the 'unsigned' tag is an instant turn off for a lot of punters and synonomous with desperate bands seeking a credible platform rather than those building a genuine fan-base. If you're good enough, write, record, gig and repeat. Pay to play is killing live music.

Rent your own venues, 6 - 8 weeks promo, selling tickets, posters, flyers...all the usual stuff.

Start in smaller venues...150 (fire reg capacity) at

Stewy wrote:
Pay to play is killing live music.

I agree.

I was in a band last year and we fell for this "pay to play" scam and we played to about 12 people and almost bankrupted ourselves.

The promoters were shady to say the least. The gig was barely publicised and we weren't even given tickets or flyers until 2 weeks before the gig in spite of repeated requests for several weeks beforehand. I didn't like the way this was being handled and wanted the band to pull out... BUT you have to pay a penalty fee if its three weeks or less to the gig... and if you don't pay that penalty fee, you will never be allowed to gig in that place again.

The clause that really f***ed me off was that where you are NOT ALLOWED to perform anywhere in the area for 20 days before AND after the gig. Like what? What the hell are we supposed to do to generate revenue and interest? In the old days you did smaller unpaid gigs to help find an audience and promote forthcoming bigger gigs. Now because of this clause, you can't do that.

Of course we had to sell something like 50 tickets before we even get considered for a payment. Pretty impossible when you're a band just trying to get started and haven't yet got an audience. Oh yes... as for "publicity" I was sent a JPEG file which we were expected to print off and distribute ourselves and that also cost a fair bit of money but since there were 40 bands playing that day, everyone received poster designs which would have their name at the top. This created a problem... you now had 40 bands all with identical posters bar the name at the top competing for space and attention and of course our posters would be removed by other bands since the poster made no mention of the other 39 bands on the bill... catastrophic!

After that performance I turned round to my fellow members and handed in my notice. I found the whole experience unfair, expensive, farcical and demoralising. This was not what I went into music for.

What I think is happening is that the genuine interesting bands with things to say are getting blocked out by all of this. Pay to Play is a filter. Those who can afford it are the boring middle class mummy boys who have nothing to say or offer. They can get a loan from Mummy and Daddy and pay the fee. Working class bands struggle enough as it is, paying for rehearsal rooms, equipment hire, transport and THEN you have to PAY to play?

Unfortunately I noticed and learned that many promoters have now switched to this hateful practice and it's now getting very hard to play free gigs.

I mentioned this last year when it all happened and a couple of replies suggested we should hire the venue and stage our own gig... er... yeah, like where are we supposed to find the money to do that? That works out much dearer than a pay to play affair.

Whichever way we go about it, we have to invest a shitload of money just to play a bloody gig.

And then after all that... people expect you to give your music away for free, forgetting the fact one has to hire a studio, pay studio and mixing costs. It has become near impossible to make any money let alone a living from playing in a new band. It's not as if we want to pay ourselves a wage - we want to generate money to buy equipment, pay for studios and so on. Pay to Play is making life impossible for young bands nowadays and I ended up quitting the music business thanks to my experiences last year and realising it was a no win situation.

And then people wonder why music is generally in a boring state...

I think that that is a wonderful post Elliot and thanks for sharing.
The one thing we have all missed in this discussion (accross 3 threads!doh!), is how I can sit here, and go "hang on a minute! Small Venues used to pay ME cash to turn up,with my full band good fees as well, only a couple of years ago!!"

I even had a direct paying account from one of the breweries that paid me at the end of month including vat.

Why on earth did this all change over to a "how many people can you bring system?"

Methinks, somebody may getting paid twice.

I'd just like to say that Mummzie and Daddzie have just bought me a new P.A., a truck, full recording studio, a rehersal facility with sky tv, back line to die for and we're playing the MEN next week.

And don't get me started on how 'tribute bands' (ugh) are being booked (and paid) by venues / promoters instead of original acts.

Trouble is - many people would rather go and see a sad copy of an established act than open their ears to new talent ..

All this makes it really hard for 'undiscovered' artists to hone their stagecraft. Playing live used to be the big plus of being in a band. Now it's just a pain ..

Actually, an amusing and true thought occurred to me whilst reading the jovial "Mummys Boy" (yeah right mate!!lol) and Stretch`s post.
I actually know of a tribute act in which this happened to.

How much money is lost in unlogged tribute act fees to elderly and , probably very poor writers , by not being logged?

I dipped in that part of the industry and got out of it because of sheer guilt.
It is appalling and a masquerade of losers.