I disagree with you strongly. No one wants to sit down and watch a music show ever again. Those days are long gone. Try it if you may it will fail.

No one is interested in music in the way that they used to. Music is not that important anymore and as such cannot scale the dizzy heights it used to. The future is mixed media and drama and this is why Cowell is succeeding.

The future is TV but not necessarily about being spoonfed by certain experts who of course have very limited music experience. The centralised system of course is a corrupt system and is in the pocket of the majors and those with money. It is basically white, middle class and a closed shop with. It is a self-serving system which can no longer flourish in the democracy that is the internet.

There are far too many people of influence now. Too many people to buy off and too many people to target so it has fragmented.

Most people want to find things themselves or with subtle recommendation. As for the so called filter, please this is a nonsense. The filter never existed. What you have is opinions, DJs and producers playing records for cash or plugging their own affiliated products. Payola is alive and well. The whole system is corrupt and downright evil and good riddance I say.

Recorded music is dead as a business venture and you only need to count the number of casualties, DJ Download bit the dust recently. More will follow and the whole business will collapse. Forget it JK.

There is still life in the movie businees because cinemas are still relevant, TV will still flourish as will Youtube and other online video sites. Social networking is the future and this is where you should start.

Forget about getting people to pay for it in large numbers and digital downloads is pretty much pointless. Move to streaming and physical product for those who want to buy access to the artist.

MUSIC is FREE now and this is the way it is. If you want to survive, you have to consolidate, multi task and own all the means to production.

The new currency is eyeballs, ratings, youtube views etc. You may still sell units but there needs to be a reason for people to buy product. But a business can be built around freemium but it has to be done in-house. Forget Spotify, et all.

I predict that a Google style search engine that consolidates all streaming media served by individual websites and companies will become the major player. Hmm, Google have just launched exactly this. With a sexy interface, ease of use and a transparent and CLEAR ad sharing model linked with adwords and adsense will prevail. Invest your money in this.

As far as TV is concerned, your criticism of the kids is unwarranted. They have cottoned onto the new economy which is about entertainment and eyeballs. Music is a means to an end and not even required. Of course technology has made everything easier but if you look at the development of the home studio and the decimation of the professional recording studio business you can see what will happen to the recording industry as a whole.

I was going to comment on JK's ideas Yesterday along the lines of BikoSteven TBH.

Music comes bundled these days, video games, TV, film etc. Selling the audio without the visual is fast becoming a thing of the past.

I agree with everything BikoSteven has said, very good post BikoSteven.

Radio One used to be a terrific radio station - but it is only as good as the songs especially the new songs.

The current crop of artists are very poor and are being created from places like the Brit School or X Factor. These artists are shallow and have no more credibility than those entering Opportunity Knocks in the 70s - none of whom became big selling legends.

A TV show is about grannies and under 10s. The music is therefore PAP. Real pop and rock music has an element of suprise and edge. That has gone missing.

I tend to agree with many of the comments above. Music has become part of a package - a free add on. The glory years are over and the price of music is on a downward spiral. Live shows are the same now - they are being hit by free shows......

The new model could well be "internet" hits - created like crazes around the World leading to celebrity and then advertising endorsements for the artists who manage an "internet hit" - which is real terms is 20 million views on You Tube or 10 million free downloads - so the bar is high.

With such great music from the last 50 years around it is increasingly hard for any new music to be anything other than a pale imitation of past glories. We have to face this - like Classical Music and Opera and other genres - Rock and Pop is now leaving its Glory Years and the 2000s will be remembered as a time when the Reality Star dominated the charts rather than for any great musical movement.

JK wrote:
"What we need (and what I'd like to do) is a fantastic, weekly, prime time TV show"

This market is already crowded (worldwide) by Cowell and his clones.

JK wrote:
"and a terrific radio station, run by someone with great ears and a very high quality control threshold."

Then magnificent, cross over hits will return."

Maybe there is a market for "quality" pop music (whatever that may be), but the times of "cross over", of the big Top-40-mainstream (1950-1990), are (at least for the next 10, 15 years) over.

BikoSteven wrote:
"centralised system of course is a corrupt system and is in the pocket of the majors and those with money."

This is true.

BikoSteven wrote:
"in the democracy that is the internet."

The internet provides some possibilities for democracy, but the concentration on the internet is (since at least 2000) much higher than in the "real" world: There is one big book seller, one big music seller, one big search engine etc. Internet radio (in the US) is dominated by CBS.

BikoSteven wrote:
"I predict that a Google style search engine that consolidates all streaming media served by individual websites and companies will become the major player. Hmm, Google have just launched exactly this. With a sexy interface, ease of use and a transparent and CLEAR ad sharing model linked with adwords and adsense will prevail. Invest your money in this."

I fear you are right. But this is not democracy, this is the old oligopol in new clothes.

More here:
After net neutrality, will we need "Google neutrality?"
arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/10...oogle-neutrality.ars

Music is and will always be important. You just have to look at the number of kids plugged into their ipods. It's just that paying for music has gone out of fashion.

We are in a period of adjustment. The music industry as was is in it's final days. I think a music show on TV will work very well but it needs to be more audience interactive and must credit the viewer with some intelligence, and it must not exist purely to make a profit.

We are experiencing a musical revolution. Those in the mainstream broadcasting media need to recognise the change and move with it. There is no set answer. One of the main factors is that there is so much choice with everything being far more easily accessible than ever before. Once the listeners recognise that they don't have to like what mainstream media tells them to like, the lid will blow off completely.

Whatever happens in the industry, music itself will continue to fill our lives, from being hummed on a bus to being performed on the world stage.

Wow ! This is just about the best topic going on all the music boards (is there anyone out there ?).

DJones, the internet does bring democracy because if you look at the biggest website of them all, Google, their business model revolves around the masses. Without the thousands of SMEs buying Adwords, they would have no business. Youtube is powered from ground up. It is hard to hype a hit, it does happen but it is harder. But most important of all, there is a level playing field on the internet.

You can create scaleable solutions. You can come to the party with $100 rather than $1m. You can create a pay as you go system of marketing which you can grow according to your budget. Compare this with radio (you can't even get meetings unless you are "known" to the producers). TV is even worse.

The biggest advantage of the internet is in the sheer numbers of alternatives. If you don't like Google, you have Bing, Adbrite, Clicksor, Facebook and a host of other sites. In the web economy, eyeballs is what matters and you can get the eyeballs faster than anything else.

BR a web hit is probably a lot less than 30 million. That would be a web smash. But you are right in your observation. I would say that with mainstream media now looking to Youtube views or internet video as a barometer of popularity, the thing we should all do is find a way to monetise it.

There is a new service called Sponsorpay which I am looking into and shall report on how it works. Also a very good video site Blip.TV allows you to distribute to other video sites. It is not all doom and gloom.

My points; no, there's no great music show on TV. There are many that use music as a small ingredient but nothing that gets millions of weekly views because the music is great.
I know how to do it. I did it with No Limits - 5.7 million on BBC2 just because the music is great.

And the problem is not that nobody loves music anymore - it is so thinly spread and so easily accessible that truly crossover sounds cannot get found and, worse, made.

Even if you were to set up such a TV show, you would be facing one major problem. Music is now so fragmented, producers are more "copycat" than ever before with ever diminishing uniqueness, who would you feature in your first show ?

Or will you as I suspect will happen default to the usual suspects of Cheryl Cole, (hip but dire indie band), (generic and very boring rap star), X-Factor winner ?

How will you go about choosing the acts when there are millions upon millions of records released. Even if you employed the best "filters" in the business, there are not enough man hours to wade through all the talent. The idea is doomed to failure and will not survive the amount of time required in order to be a success.

The only show possible is a variation of the Cowell machine complete with the image of fairness (the illusion is that anyone can be a star with X-Factor). Even so, it can only work on a certain level. The moment you start putting in the latest and youngest crap band and image driven singers, you will lose the mainstream audience watch X-Factor.

Times have changed JK. I love 7 inch records and remember the record player that we had when I was a kid. It had one speaker, it was portable and I listened to a lot of good music on it. No chance of it returning into popularity.

I reckon that the only show that would work is a show that reflects the globalisation of music that also reflects the NEW record industry of Majors, Indie Labels and Independent artists and that goes around the world, highlights the use of innovation, independence, video etc, brings more rags to riches stories and more importantly SEEKS out talent rather than wait for so called experts to bring it to the producers attention.

Anything else is more of the same and will be fragmented and ignored by most people because music is so tribal and territorial now and anything that is not in your comfort zone gets zoned out.

Reality TV is the new creator of stars for a reason you know. (Albeit for 15 mins).

BikoSteven wrote:
Wow ! This is just about the best topic going on all the music boards (is there anyone out there ?).

DJones, the internet does bring democracy because if you look at the biggest website of them all, Google, their business model revolves around the masses. Without the thousands of SMEs buying Adwords, they would have no business. Youtube is powered from ground up. It is hard to hype a hit, it does happen but it is harder. But most important of all, there is a level playing field on the internet.


I disagree. You are aware that a lot of music blog sites will not look at submissions unless they go through the usual PR channels? There are many online PR companies. You still need money to market and promote yourself above the plethora of other acts put there. PR is the only part of the industry that continues to prosper...and let's face it, nobody signs with a label unless they can promote you.

Music blogs are one example of a new filter controlled by the old guard.

The Hype Machine, an aggregator of music blogs, is usually hailed as a prime example for the new music industry of unlimited diversity, "net labels" etc., but a closer look reveals, for example, that of their Top 50 Albums (2008) around 35 were released by the majors.

Who says you have to go through a blog ?
PR is a different beast and music PR is full of snake oil men types who will promise the earth and do NOTHING. Don't waste your time.

Same thing with blogs. Don't send any of these bozos your music. The point I am trying to tell you all is that as someone who works on the internet, I understand how it works. Music people do NOT know how the internet works. Especially at the top level.

I would never plug anything to a blog. They are vastly over-rated and will find you anyway. A self respecting blogger will find music for himself instead of being bribed by record companies. Blogs like Popjustice used to be good but now they have been effectively "bought" by the majors with the "gifts" exclusive promos etc.

More important than blogs is Youtube. I know some people on here think Youtube is controlled by Google but that is only true in the sense of the ownership.

Google hardly police Youtube and will only remove videos after complaints. I should know I have had Youtube remove an unauthorised video of mine.

Don't waste your time with bloggers. They will not contribute towards your sales. Don't waste your money on expensive music PR companies, they will do NOTHING for you that you cannot do yourself. Their importance is also vastly overrated.

Spend your efforts on developing a good video, whether this is a music video, a trailer, behind the scenes, a musical, whatever.

Spend money getting eyeballs through online advertising which is cheap, scaleable and at least you are guaranteed that people will watch your video even if it is only for 30 secs. Far more than a lot of PR you will waste money on.

There IS a time for PR, but when you actually have a good story apart from the music.

After reading all these valid points, personally I conclude this about Crossover Music/PR and Media.

Crossover hits, without a doubt are a good investment and please many people when they work, but will not come to fulfillment without a good "crossover" story, which will need, at all times some level of PR management to maintain a quality control over. The trouble is, with a large amount of the current PR that is , quite literally "up for sale" (with the DIY market in mind) is that, time is just being bought from someone who knows somebody who might be able to help as long as there is an "angle" as well as a product to keep all interested , if this is the case, then the PR guy can be by-passed anyway, as long as an act understand that they are in entertainment and take all that goes along with it learned from what has gone before.

Now, if there was to be a "weekly quality" show etc, the way that the public have been used to being introduced to new music in the most recent climate is still via the huge PR story, which ironically has actually been created by the biggest music show at the moment which is , sadly in my opinion, X Factor. The headlines and angle are created within the format, it`s a PR no brainer, an act wins, and act loses, it`s an angle.

So, any act coming to the table as it were in a show format, be it on the radio, on the web or on TV are unlikely to be able to create a ripple without an old model ripple of a story, I can`t see that , that part can be changed.

I really cannot see this PR/Diary/Public Interest in acts or songs as part of the old model not being a part of a new model, however I do completely agree with Steven that the death knell is without a doubt booming in the ears of some of the expensive PR companies who do nothing more than they are told to do than the average accident claims solicitor, but an act/artist /writer still does have to accept that to be in entertainment will probably require a little more than just existence and creating a good song here and there, PR will not die, but some people won`t be doing it anymore.

It's a question of finding someone able to pick really crossover music and persuading them to work for peanuts - not easy.

The wonderful old trick of TOTP in the 60s - programming from popularity - was destroyed when the chart got hyped. Now nobody can spot popularity.

Spotting popularity is one thing, spotting popularity that can sustain itself financially is another.
Only 3 years ago, we had this new thing of being able to release what we want , when we wanted and the obstacle of watching an audience of genuine fans being divided down the middle as to whether they "donate" to a project by buying it, or just enjoy it for free ,is a very similar stepping stone to be tackling as was chart hyping.
A record hyped into the chart = free views on YouTube these days.(artist/label or whatever collect royalties, however large or small only)
This, I believe, is the only gap left to adjust and if you compare it to chart hyping as I have there, it is not a new thing. A chart hyped record, would be played on the radio and recorded, that bit has not changed.

What has changed, is the volume of product out there, desperate to be heard, a lot of which never should be heard.
I don`t actually disagree with your idea about the TV show at all,(apart from which format it should be in, thats open for debate), but to go back down this route, would be to acknowledge the advent of MP3s and downloads as just the next phase, maybe a blip, when everybody shouted at once.

Maybe history will show later , that it was.
Sadly, I think we probably all would agree that more music would sell, if there was actually less choice and arguably , the choices that we have on mass for consumption at the moment are not ideal for the future of music which is the main animal up for protection here.
Maybe history will also show, that at the start of the Millenium, the human race went on a Musical Safari for a bit.

The best music show of the past few years was a thing called "Taratata" on French TV. Two or three bands playing in the round with quality interviews and lots of exchanges between the guests, but it cost millions to produce.

When I look at Japan (leading us for most of these things), I see music and audiovisuals on the phone, not the TV nor the web. Movies are going to suffer big time (three distributors have gone bust there recently, and this was the second biggest movie market in the world not long ago).

All the debates about the web levelling the field and people wanting to find stuff on their own is wishful thinking, I'm afraid. $100 won't even buy you search engine optimiser software these days. I know a few people getting by nicely in the new environment. But the people making actual money (ie, tours, merchandise, TV appearances and whatnot) are now MOR - criminally overlooked by a short-sighted business.

The new model will come - based, I suspect, on the assumption that straight sales of music is dead - replaced by making the most out of projects and keeping overheads way down.

But the only way for music to catch fire again is a kick start of exposure to millions and a highly adored TV series is the route. Prime time, infecting every age and type (No Limits had so many fans over 70 as well as kids), featuring only great music of every type.

Shirley Bassey next to Jay Sean; AC/DC followed by Noel Coward.

It works. I did it on radio and TV and it pulled in millions.

JK wrote:
"Shirley Bassey next to Jay Sean; AC/DC followed by Noel Coward. It works. I did it on radio and TV and it pulled in millions."

It worked. It worked at a time (60/70s, even 80s&90s with MTV) when there were no alternatives: If you wanted to see your favourite act on TV, you had to watch TOTP or the big (family) variety show.

Today (almost) no AC/DC fan would "endure" Shirley Bassey to see a few minutes of hard rock. And vice versa.

No, DJ - even then no AC/DC would have thought of listening to Shirley; they would have turned off and switched on the CD player... except - after they got sucked into the show they discovered that they might not have liked Bassey but they loved Journey or Night Ranger or Boston or Bonjovi - and kept listening.

No Limits broke Tarzan Boy. We also broke Kiss.

You didn't get 5.7 million viewers by being specialist. My musical format was simple.

Great music.

Great rock, great rap, great MOR, great pop, great country, great garage.

Helicopter Tune next to When I'm Cleaning Windows. Worked then; will work now and tomorrow.

JK - the acts you speak of were already household names when you played them. I agree a music show like that would be a hit. That part of the industry ( The Heritage Part ) is already doing quite well. BBC 3 and 4 are running successful theme nights along those lines on Fridays throughout the year already to prove this.

I think the problem now is that the Chart is disconnected from the General Public. Music has splintered and much of it ( especially pop ) has virtually no value anymore because it is so poor.

Even X Factor is on the wane this series and the pool of talent has now been well and truly over-fished.

I agree with many of the comments about the New Model and about the internet. But how this can translate into an industry of any size is beyond me.

From now on I can see small record labels with niche artists making a living from a combination of Live - Publishing - syncs - internet sites and finally the least recorded music ( but usually packaged at live shows for fans or on subscription packages ) These bands will be in yesterday's terms small.

I really do believe the "glory" years are behind in terms of massive hits and multi million selling artists.