see Attitudes & Opinions

Sorry JK far too simplistic and not the real world. We've employed all the various promo/PR Companies and some are shit and total liers others work their arses off but due to the vagaries of the Radio 1 (and etc.) Producers they still can't get the results you want. This doesn't mean they haven't done the job it just means that the powers that be won't support the release even as has recently happened you get told directly from the Station "It's a great record, love the feel can we interview him when he's in town?" Are you going to playlist it? "No it won't appeal to our demographic!". The only chance the plugger then has is to try a trade off against a bigger name/exclusive etc. but this only works for the Majors. Most radio are now more interested in the marketing spend than what the actual record sounds like.
What you need to do is shop around and try and find the good honest pluggers that do exsist and judge them on their quantifiable efforts not just playlists. Most producers I've had this misfortune to deal with wouldn't know a hit if one fell on their head and NONE of them have ever worked at the coalface(so to speak). They do it the other way around like Alex JD moving to EMI Music but how many have worked and helped break acts before joining the radio/TV side?

all great ideas JK, however, I have had no end of problems in the past with pluggers and PR people since finding a really good one to believe in the record without full payment seems almost impossible. Does anyone have another view/recommendation I wonder?

JK once again well done for bringing this topic up.
For my 2 pennys very few pluggers are worth the high fees they command and they should now be on some form of performance pay.

I cannot justify paying someone 2000 pounds and get no satisfactory results. PR and plugging is something that should be brought inhouse. Management should handle this (for unsigned acts) or the labels should do this (if the band is signed).

What one can do is hire someone to be a PR consultant or you hire a marketing executive on an hourly basis to handle parts of the marketing for you.

Music PR and plugging is in most cases a scam whereby you spend a lot of money with someone who cannot get you airplay. Might as well do it yourself, at least it wont cost you anything.

Marketing spend is now more of a key than who you employ to plug.

Trying to get a record on radio without the marketing spend is pointless - because however good the track they wont play it.

Single plays late at night are fairly worthless and to break a track into the Top 30 you need playlisting on several stations.

I cant remember the last time I heard a track daytime that was not on a big label - in fact I do not think I have heard one in my recent memory.

Trade offs are the way it works for "press" but this is harder for "pluggers" because they need all stations on board and exclusives are difficult.

I agree with the sentiment that JK suggests but many top pluggers work many records for free already to try and break acts they believe in - without success in nearly every case.

rather the same as the "new model for a 21st Century music company".
And I believe the two are related.
You can break an act without serious radio support - or at least START the avalanche (I do believe a genuine hit carries its own momentum).
Sandi Thom (which I don't rate as a track) nevertheless succeeded through a combination of internet activity and press interest. Lily Allen to a degree too.
But I think the killer ingredient was IMAGINATION.
They both happened because, at one stage or another, they got the Major Machine behind them too.
Not always possible and not always a good idea.
I fear the major involvement in those two may well KILL global success.
Likewise ORSON; they started due to a mention here which spread and got majors involved but that very pressure may have killed them.
The personal touch and the use of huge imagination and energy is vital.
So, I believe is momentum and too many music people are incapable of grabbing that and forcing further momentum.
PROMOTION: get that exposure somehow - even if it means creating your own weapons.

This is indeed a cracking discussion...it is possible to get radio and press on your side, but it is the hardest day's work I've ever done - slow, time consuming and enough disappointment to make grown men weep. However, once they believe you are credible, serious and professional about your craft they WILL print your press release and many regional stations WILL give the records some play. The result is regional recognition, bums on seats at bigger venues and some product moved.

Moving that to a national and/or international level is another kettle of fish entirely...thoughts?

The good news answer to the question in your last line is... if it's good enough it will then make progress through momentum.
Or it's not good enough.
Or - and here you need really good antenna to tell your head, not your heart, if it's a real hit - you need even more local/internet/word of mouth to nudge that pebble over that cliff.

many thanks for that JK. I am beginning to understand the marvellous new opportunities offered via the internet and I do intend to exploit them along with my other resources/contacts. I am in the process of getting the studio ready and setting up the label. All will be ready to go this Autumn with a view to an early spring campaign on a single. At least this time I won't have to worry about all that dreadful distribution bottle-neck, which is what has thwarted me (and many others) in the past.

You know the whole business of independent promotion makes me
a little nervous.

I say this because I know what a financial hole you can get yourself into
if you decide to go down this route.

Frankly I would be inclined to steer well clear of employing indy promo teams
because it's expensive, unrealiable and unlikely to deliver results.

Also it's a murky world filled with questionable motives..

My advise - use the current lines of communications (Internet, email, phone
etc..) and if you have any contacts particually in radio, get friendly and
see about getting airplay. Also Internet radio and international radio
and even maybe London pirate radio stations if the track fits their playlists..

Be careful on the spend - remember hit singles don't produce the return that they once did ..

David

Hits are wonderful things - but you can't always get them
and you may never own one .. who knows .. so I approach it
in another way - that is to produce, produce, produce and get
your content out there.

Some might sell a lot and some will sell a few .. so long as you're
getting tracks done and releasing them that's the main part.

We all love to have hits - but even bubbling-unders aren't bad ..

As for physical vs digital - like Ive said all along - for the small independent label I would suggest digital all the way. If you go physical then you're opening up a rather ugly can of worms.

The perils of physical include

1. artwork design and printing
2. disc manufacturing
3. stock warehousing
4. secure a distributor
(remember they will want you to prove to them that you've got
a sure fire seller before they will take you on)
5. Retail shelf presense -
The distributor really has to be able to convince retailers to accept
your indy product and put it on the shelf.
Most retailers aren't interested - so that's an uphill battler in itself.
6. Getting paid - be prepared for a long wait -
6 - 12 months - that's so long as the retailer pays their bills and
that the distributor accounts back to the label and doesn't
withheld funds for potential unsold/returned stock.

The odds are that you WILL LOSE MONEY if you go physical
so make sure you've put aside plenty of bucks to cover the losses.

Whereas digital is so clean and trasparant - plus every month
you get paid which is nice.

David

many thanks to you too David. I am certainly not going near a physical release since I've seen too many go under.

This is a fascinating discussion thread and i have been digesting all the points everyone has made and i have come to a conclusion.

We need an Itunes of music marketing. A website that can take every new release, and then become a resource for new music.

The site can then hire marketing experts to approach radio/TV/Magazines/blogs and the public to give them new releases of the day, record of the week etc.

The idea is to create a pull marketing system as opposed to a push marketing system similar to how newswires work. It must be democratic and not open to manipulation by record companies and should have 3 categories:

Major label product
AIM member independents product
Non AIM member independents product

All releases must be released through Itunes etc to ensure quick and easy sell through.
Maybe have a registration system to pay for cost but it musnt be more than 50.00 per release.

Your thoughts everyone.

JK i was reading your post about promotion and the new music economy and Alan Hansen's famous words rang in my ear "You can't win the championship with kids".

We all know what happened that season.

For me the way to break an act outside the majors is to totally not use the majors system. In short radio plugging is a no no because in most cases it will be a monumental waste of time.

Radio will come on board but let them come to you.

Maybe someone who has a real hit on their hands can try this.

The key is TELEVISION or should i say Vision because you can swap Tele for Web, mobile or any other carrier.

Lets not forget Dance music broke because of clubs, punk because of the scene and the next big Indie act because of the Internet.

In Fact im sticking my neck out and will say the Internet can and will break an act entirely on its own. By the time the media jump on board and move the act into the stratosphere they will have no choice but to do so because the artist will already be in the charts.

It's a brave new world.

These costs are falling in the digital age. Recording and production fees can be extraordinarily cheap, depending on the level of sophistication desired. Tech-savvy artists can further cut costs with a good laptop and ProTools.

(...)

Yet the reality is that no act has carved out a lucrative career doing all this on its own. Many point to Clap Your Hands Say Yeah as a DIY success story. And while it's true that the band declined to sign to a label for either its 2005 self-titled debut or its sophomore album, "Some Loud Thunder," released January 30, the band did secure major-label-affiliated distribution through the Alternative Distribution Alliance. After capitalizing on blog buzz the first time around and selling more than 125,000 copies, according to Nielsen SoundScan, the band has sold only 29,000 copies of its follow-up so far.

(...)

But since MySpace began offering the service as a "soft launch" in December, few artists have adopted it. Among the top 20 unsigned acts on MySpace, none have a MyStore module on their profile page. SnoCap, the company that operates the service, in late January lowered its per-track commission from 45 cents to 39 cents to spur more adoption.
Denters, for one, has her fans -- both virtual and real. Two YouTube fans, who have posted multiple videos of themselves singing along to her songs, took the time and effort to meet her at the airport in New York when she arrived in the United States in early February. Despite having no idea what flight she was on, they showed up at John F. Kennedy International Airport with "Welcome Esmee" signs, waiting as passengers from virtually every flight from Europe arrived until Denters appeared.


www.reuters.com/article/internetNews/idUSN2518918320070226

Hi Djones,

I read that post today actually and while i acknowledge it hasnt been done i can attribute it to the baby steps of putting such a campaign together.
I remember the early days of rave and dance music and the comments from Radio One. Dance music isnt for radio its for clubs. A few number ones later and they soon changed their tune. Yes Kiss FM played a major role but dont forget they were already making waves as a pirate station.

david wrote:
As for physical vs digital - like Ive said all along - for the small independent label I would suggest digital all the way. If you go physical then you're opening up a rather ugly can of worms.


You forget to point out one thing - now that anyone and his dog can have a "label" simply by uploading a track to a digital distributor, the actual chances of having a hit are much much smaller than ever before.

There will now be an abunbdance of "releases" (plus the entire back catalogues !) so HOW are you going to make your "release" stand out?

The more i think about it the more Television becomes a medium for growth for new music. But there are a few things that need to happen.

1. All indies, whether on proper labels or vanity labels MUST join AIM. JK and other bright sparks on this board need to as well.

2. AIM as a collective are planning to get a kickback from the EMI/Warners deal if i read it correctly. This kickback must go into production of a meaningful TV show that showcases the best of its works as voted by its panel or selected panel of experts whose job it is to listen to new releases from AIM members.

3. AIM should act as a major in terms of using its clout, buying power, collective licensing etc. They have been brilliant so far but there is an opportunity if they will take it.

4. The AIM show is mirrored/syndicated across the web using a new collective licensing for video content for its members enabling all websites to license its content to stream to its visitors on a pay per stream basis. AIM can negotiate with Youtube, Myspace, Google and all the other cats out there.

5. Watch the explosion of independent music as AIM takes on the promotion and distribution headache for its members. Remember the EMUCAST deal ? Whatever happened to that ? AIM can lobby the Govt over Radio 1 and its major label bias and secure a special 3 hour weekly show for its members.

Am i the only one who can see the opportunity for Indies if AIM would take this opportunity and use its power. By the way Alison and the AIM board. I am available for any job offers in helping you craft a strategy that would ensure Indie music dominates the charts and the market and over take Universal but with all AIM members operating a lean mean music machine.

PS: I would also address the Indies lack of business skills particularly for the smaller and newer companies but i know AIM is doing some good work in that field. JK I know you have some good ideas but what do you think about AIM operating as a major in terms of negotiating opportunities for its members while allowing them to run their business and concentrate on talent, a&r and additional marketing/PR because AIM would have a major outlet on Radio 1 and BBC 1. From a cultural point of view the Majors are already over represented on public Telly and Radio AIM have a legitimate argument with Mssrs Blair and Brown, or should it be Fergal Sharkey ?

Isn't this deal between IMPALA and WMG a proof that the majors are taking over the so called "independent" sector?

Beggars Banquet is in bed with Warner since 1978 ...

very true Manager Man, however, you could just as easily argue that anyone can shove a band together. The point is working hard on things to get a great record together and then work it on a slow burn with at least something of a promo budget. As it starts to go, maybe shove some more money in the pot and so on. It's just a matter of having the will and the balls to do it.

There is also that word of mouth buzz that costs absolutely zippo. That is one area where I know I can hit hard.