So says a BBC commentator - to me it was always astonishing there were troubles. Why on earth could such stupid things as religion and nationalism cause people to kill each other. But for me Brexit is equally barmy. It really is time we grew up as a species.

Very simplistic

Think Arab and Jew

Deep south of America


So many of us despise those not like us...

Spee wrote:
Very simplistic

Think Arab and Jew

Deep south of America


So many of us despise those not like us...

Perhaps Biblical scholars would say that the worst rows are family rows (Cain and Abel, etc) ?

Yes, peace exists in Northern Ireland - but tension still exists underneath the surface between Catholics and Protestants.

By and large, they stick to their own areas, and the majority of the Protestants consider themselves as British - and very rarely set foot in the south, the Republic.

A hard Brexit could reintroduce the Border, which precipitated a lot of conflict, smuggling and discord.

This week, Captain Nairac was in the media; the under-cover British soldier disappeared without trace, 40 years ago, from an Armagh pub.

It is hoped that Brexit won't devide the island of Ireland (with border-check points/passport controls etc.), as this could well rekindle the troubles.

JK2006 wrote:
Why on earth could such stupid things as religion and nationalism cause people to kill each other

The Irish troubles aren't really about that. They're about economics.

A convenient starting point is the series of military campaigns by England (and Scotland, this is important) against Ireland. They were kicked off by Henry VIII, seeking to impose a Reformation in Ireland. Oliver Cromwell and his New Model Army finally crushed the Irish. Each of these campaigns rewarded the success of the participants with land confiscated from the Irish. Much of the most enthusiastic military support came from protestant Scottish lords, particularly in the later campaigns. New Scottish landlords were therefore overrepresented among the new ruling class in Ireland.

Over subsequent years, absentee landlords allowed their local agents to manage the Irish estates poorly. Because of the land law that applied, plots of land were divided into ever-smaller units, and rents were set a hair below what the tenant farmer could earn from the land. Absentee landlords (living carefree mostly in Scotland) didn't care about the plight of the tenants, so long as the balance sheets looked good. The only way a smallholding tenant farmer could produce enough calories to survive was by growing potatoes. This made Ireland vulnerable to various potato diseases that caused a series of famines.

It is a mistake to think that British policy towards Ireland was unified. The British government was made up of professional administrators, who believed in good government in service to the people on principle, and also good government as enlightened self interest: a prosperous Ireland is better for Britain than an unstable liability. The government repeatedly tried to introduce policies that would benefit Ireland, but were blocked by two factions. Firstly, the Royal family was more influential in politics at that time, and was rabidly anti-catholic. Secondly, the above-mentioned landowners used their political influence to block land law reform and perpetuate the exploitative economic structure.

Eventually, the government managed to enact some policies that would govern Ireland more in line with good practice, but it was too late. A series of rebellions while Britain was distracted and weakened by events elsewhere resulted in Irish independence, which came in several stages. The north chose to remain with Britain because of the stronger Scottish protestant heritage there. In the south, there was some rather nasty score-settling against protestants, including large scale confiscations of protestant-owned assets - as a punitive measure in revenge for Oliver Cromwell 250 years before?? It's this small minded tit-for-tat attitude that fuelled the 20th century troubles, as well as plain old gangsterism.

I think it is a great shame that there was, and still is, animosity from the Irish towards the English (but not the Scottish, who seem to get a free pass). British Islanders have thousands of years of history and culture in common. The real argument is between the ordinary working man and powerful vested interests who sought to enslave him in inescapable economic servitude. Unfortunately, the same old shit is still going on in Ireland today, but with Irish assholes taking their turn doing the exploiting, corruption and thievery. Indeed, the distinction between terrorists, police, politicians, "businessmen" and gangsters is not always very clear in Ireland...