Sir... I'm sorry; am I being thick? A deal with the EU only matters if or when we leave the EU. Brexit means leaving the EU - no customs union, single market, backstop or laws. The UK voted by a tiny minority for Brexit. Now people know what it means, a second referendum will show whether we still want Brexit (and No Deal until afterwards) or we remain in the EU (without further massive expense and wasted energy). Can we have that second referendum tomorrow please (I don't think there should have been a first one but simplicity ruled)? In or out. End of. Please.

And if we don't like the result of the second referendum - should we have a third?

JK2006 wrote:
In or out. End of. Please.

That was the question in the referendum - In or Out?
It was answered quite clearly by the voters, but the politicians decided to complicate the process because they didn't like the result.

In accordance with the rules agreed by the MPs, the UK will leave the EU on 29th March, (unless MPs find some way to break their own rules).
The will be 'End Of'.

Personally, I am in favour of 'No Deal' Anything else is not really leaving.

No Barney it's not a question of liking or not liking the result; the referendum said Brexit; now we are about to Brexit do voters still want it, knowing the potential problems? I never thought such a complex question should be given a simple answer but it was so now the "Are You Sure?" referendum will confirm or cancel it. Then - if it's still Brexit, our government has to sort out future deals after we leave.

We are, historically, a principal instagor of democracy - and introduced many global and lasting legal principles.

Magna Carta/US Constitution/Habeus Corpus etc., spring to mind - so it would be perverse to be the first to now embark on an 'are we sure' route.

We have made our bed, the people have made their views through the ballot box - essentially because a club we joined about 50 years ago is no longer fit for purpose.

Our unwritten constitution would need a major redraft to accommodate this new 'sure, are you' concept - if it was allowed to precipitate a second ballot.

Agree with JK. The Brexit debate did not cover the issues that have come to light subsequently. It was democracy in a fog (deliberate). Now the fog has cleared let's vote again in the climate of reality.

The second vote stands...If democracy is the answer what is there to fear with a 2nd vote? If the answer is remain that represents the majority view based on full information. End of. And vice versa.

wyot wrote:
The Brexit debate did not cover the issues that have come to light subsequently

The second vote stands


What issues?


Why? Not the third vote!

Vote two; Out and No Deal until after we leave or Stay In? No need for a third vote.

I am pretty sure that the blurb we were sent before the vote included the warning that we might have no deal at all, so it has already been voted for.

You can still be in the single market and outside the EU - like Norway and Iceland who are in the EEA.

The EU is a political and economic union and nations in and outside it choose which bits to be in. For example the UK, Denmark, Sweden, Poland etc did not join the euro.

It's a bit weird for us as we are in but are leaving.

there are several matters which really annoy me which are repeatedly ignored by Brexit promoters.

1. It was a non-binding referendum. Advisory only, No government has do something when the advice is advisory. While Treasury and other government depts advise the Government and they generally follow that advice but if that advice was found to be fraudulent or simply wrong it would be bizarre if a Government automatically followed..they are in charge for God's sake.
.
2. It has now been proved that the Brexit campaign was conducted CRIMINALLY. Now under investigation by police.

If a politician or minister is accused of criminal acts they generally stand aside while an investigation takes place.
## except it's already been proved that aspects of Brexit were conducted CRIMINALLY.

The legal ramifications if more criminal actions are found would be horrendous. Any government could face crippling financial sanctions by industry and massive lawsuits if their business suffers (which it will). In other words the tax payer looses again.

3. Nearly 2 million Brits living in Europe were denied a vote. There are around 500,000 Brits living in Australasia- still British subjects- denied a vote.
To pretend that 16/ 17 year olds - adults these days- do NOT have a dire interest in what Brexit means for them on a new world is, I say not just mean but very Non-British.


4. Quite apart from the financial ramifications and dire results predicted for British citizens (not the rich though) the claim of..

" If we have another referendum and we don't like the result...do we then have another one"...for FUCK'S SAKE...the
next referendum can be A BINDING REFERENDUM unlike the last one which was ADVISORY.

hedda wrote:
there are several matters which really annoy me which are repeatedly ignored by Brexit promoters.

1. It was a non-binding referendum. Advisory only, No government has do something when the advice is advisory. While Treasury and other government depts advise the Government and they generally follow that advice but if that advice was found to be fraudulent or simply wrong it would be bizarre if a Government automatically followed..they are in charge for God's sake.
.
2. It has now been proved that the Brexit campaign was conducted CRIMINALLY. Now under investigation by police.

If a politician or minister is accused of criminal acts they generally stand aside while an investigation takes place.
## except it's already been proved that aspects of Brexit were conducted CRIMINALLY.

The legal ramifications if more criminal actions are found would be horrendous. Any government could face crippling financial sanctions by industry and massive lawsuits if their business suffers (which it will). In other words the tax payer looses again.

3. Nearly 2 million Brits living in Europe were denied a vote. There are around 500,000 Brits living in Australasia- still British subjects- denied a vote.
To pretend that 16/ 17 year olds - adults these days- do NOT have a dire interest in what Brexit means for them on a new world is, I say not just mean but very Non-British.


4. Quite apart from the financial ramifications and dire results predicted for British citizens (not the rich though) the claim of..

" If we have another referendum and we don't like the result...do we then have another one"...for FUCK'S SAKE...the
next referendum can be A BINDING REFERENDUM unlike the last one which was ADVISORY.


All those point have been raised and discussed and, where appropriate, voted on.
The results of the referendum became article 50 which was voted on and became law so cannot be repealed without further acts of parliament, so things have gone way beyond 'advisory'.

Whether criminally activity has been proven cannot be established until after a trial. Innocent until proven guilty, remember?
Even if proven, I think the allegations involve the way a campaign was managed and would not effect the way people voted in the referendum. They seem to be more technical than practical.

When at school, our world is influenced mainly by family and school friends. I think it's right for school leavers to have a couple of years of experience of the bigger world to allow them space to form their own 'adult' opinions, based on those personal experiences. It's not just about age.

PaulB's response sadly says it all.

The Brexit campaign has already been found to have broken the law.

That's as a campaign. Now individuals from that campaign are being investigated. The crime has already been found to have happened.

Brexit was sold on outrageous lies.

You simply cannot dismiss outrageous fabrications like the £350M NHS red bus lie. Or the queues of "immigrants" fabrication.

Their effect goes far beyond those 2 examples as they helped create an atmosphere that fed the minds of people already doing it tough..millions and millions of them..that the EU was to blame when it's the actions of their own governments over the past 20 years both Conservative and new Labour.

But hey..the UK went into a war on blatant and proven lies in which 100,000s of innocents were killed and millions displaced causing the catastrophe of the refugee crisis where millions are flooding Europe and enough Brits now accept that even though they caused the problem and while Germany (who did not attack Iraq) does the hard work soaking up the majority of refugees Little Englanders still moan and groan about fantasy problems and ignore the real ones because basically..over the 30/40 years enough of them have been dumbed down and are basically thick and are the Turkeys Who Voted For Xmas.

And nothing happened to those who caused all those deaths (most are still in Parliament)

If they accept such a life-changing result built on outrageous and proven lies where the law was broken, then "democracy" is basically fucked.

In reality British democracy now is what a handful of foreign based media barons dictate to it.

It doesn't bother me what happens with Brexit. I've given up on the UK ..will still visit for special reasons but I don't find it a desirable destination any more. Too expensive beyond words..ghastly nouveau riche dominating every single aspect..the arts, music etc have been homogenized and all spontaneity has been beaten out of it...London used to be such a joy (still looks amazing ) but it's unbelievably dull and over-priced.

Maybe if Brexit goes ahead the place will get such a Reality slap in the face it could become interesting again...nothing like a depression and massive unemployment...throughout history it's when places start to party again like there's no tomorrow.

On the upside there are so many fabulous places to visit on the way to the UK (Berlin is thriving with a club scene reminiscent of 80s London)

And fortunately with my Irish passport (thanks Granny) it's so easy.

hedda wrote:
PaulB's response sadly says it all.

The Brexit campaign has already been found to have broken the law.

That's as a campaign. Now individuals from that campaign are being investigated. The crime has already been found to have happened.

Brexit was sold on outrageous lies.

You simply cannot dismiss outrageous fabrications like the £350M NHS red bus lie. Or the queues of "immigrants" fabrication.

Their effect goes far beyond those 2 examples as they helped create an atmosphere that fed the minds of people already doing it tough..millions and millions of them..that the EU was to blame when it's the actions of their own governments over the past 20 years both Conservative and new Labour.

But hey..the UK went into a war on blatant and proven lies in which 100,000s of innocents were killed and millions displaced causing the catastrophe of the refugee crisis where millions are flooding Europe and enough Brits now accept that even though they caused the problem and while Germany (who did not attack Iraq) does the hard work soaking up the majority of refugees Little Englanders still moan and groan about fantasy problems and ignore the real ones because basically..over the 30/40 years enough of them have been dumbed down and are basically thick and are the Turkeys Who Voted For Xmas.

And nothing happened to those who caused all those deaths (most are still in Parliament)

If they accept such a life-changing result built on outrageous and proven lies where the law was broken, then "democracy" is basically fucked.

In reality British democracy now is what a handful of foreign based media barons dictate to it.

It doesn't bother me what happens with Brexit. I've given up on the UK ..will still visit for special reasons but I don't find it a desirable destination any more. Too expensive beyond words..ghastly nouveau riche dominating every single aspect..the arts, music etc have been homogenized and all spontaneity has been beaten out of it...London used to be such a joy (still looks amazing ) but it's unbelievably dull and over-priced.

Maybe if Brexit goes ahead the place will get such a Reality slap in the face it could become interesting again...nothing like a depression and massive unemployment...throughout history it's when places start to party again like there's no tomorrow.

On the upside there are so many fabulous places to visit on the way to the UK (Berlin is thriving with a club scene reminiscent of 80s London)

And fortunately with my Irish passport (thanks Granny) it's so easy.


Have a cup of strong coffee and listen to some smooth music, and chill. It helps to temper emotional outbursts.

PaulB wrote:
hedda wrote:
PaulB's response sadly says it all.

The Brexit campaign has already been found to have broken the law.

That's as a campaign. Now individuals from that campaign are being investigated. The crime has already been found to have happened.

Brexit was sold on outrageous lies.

You simply cannot dismiss outrageous fabrications like the £350M NHS red bus lie. Or the queues of "immigrants" fabrication.

Their effect goes far beyond those 2 examples as they helped create an atmosphere that fed the minds of people already doing it tough..millions and millions of them..that the EU was to blame when it's the actions of their own governments over the past 20 years both Conservative and new Labour.

But hey..the UK went into a war on blatant and proven lies in which 100,000s of innocents were killed and millions displaced causing the catastrophe of the refugee crisis where millions are flooding Europe and enough Brits now accept that even though they caused the problem and while Germany (who did not attack Iraq) does the hard work soaking up the majority of refugees Little Englanders still moan and groan about fantasy problems and ignore the real ones because basically..over the 30/40 years enough of them have been dumbed down and are basically thick and are the Turkeys Who Voted For Xmas.

And nothing happened to those who caused all those deaths (most are still in Parliament)

If they accept such a life-changing result built on outrageous and proven lies where the law was broken, then "democracy" is basically fucked.

In reality British democracy now is what a handful of foreign based media barons dictate to it.

It doesn't bother me what happens with Brexit. I've given up on the UK ..will still visit for special reasons but I don't find it a desirable destination any more. Too expensive beyond words..ghastly nouveau riche dominating every single aspect..the arts, music etc have been homogenized and all spontaneity has been beaten out of it...London used to be such a joy (still looks amazing ) but it's unbelievably dull and over-priced.

Maybe if Brexit goes ahead the place will get such a Reality slap in the face it could become interesting again...nothing like a depression and massive unemployment...throughout history it's when places start to party again like there's no tomorrow.

On the upside there are so many fabulous places to visit on the way to the UK (Berlin is thriving with a club scene reminiscent of 80s London)

And fortunately with my Irish passport (thanks Granny) it's so easy.


Have a cup of strong coffee and listen to some smooth music, and chill. It helps to temper emotional outbursts.

hardly an "emotional outburst"..just good common sense.

This is an emotional outburst : go fuck yourself

hedda wrote:
PaulB's response sadly says it all.

The Brexit campaign has already been found to have broken the law.

That's as a campaign. Now individuals from that campaign are being investigated. The crime has already been found to have happened.

Brexit was sold on outrageous lies.

You simply cannot dismiss outrageous fabrications like the £350M NHS red bus lie. Or the queues of "immigrants" fabrication.

Their effect goes far beyond those 2 examples as they helped create an atmosphere that fed the minds of people already doing it tough..millions and millions of them..that the EU was to blame when it's the actions of their own governments over the past 20 years both Conservative and new Labour.

But hey..the UK went into a war on blatant and proven lies in which 100,000s of innocents were killed and millions displaced causing the catastrophe of the refugee crisis where millions are flooding Europe and enough Brits now accept that even though they caused the problem and while Germany (who did not attack Iraq) does the hard work soaking up the majority of refugees Little Englanders still moan and groan about fantasy problems and ignore the real ones because basically..over the 30/40 years enough of them have been dumbed down and are basically thick and are the Turkeys Who Voted For Xmas.

And nothing happened to those who caused all those deaths (most are still in Parliament)

If they accept such a life-changing result built on outrageous and proven lies where the law was broken, then "democracy" is basically fucked.

In reality British democracy now is what a handful of foreign based media barons dictate to it.

It doesn't bother me what happens with Brexit. I've given up on the UK ..will still visit for special reasons but I don't find it a desirable destination any more. Too expensive beyond words..ghastly nouveau riche dominating every single aspect..the arts, music etc have been homogenized and all spontaneity has been beaten out of it...London used to be such a joy (still looks amazing ) but it's unbelievably dull and over-priced.

Maybe if Brexit goes ahead the place will get such a Reality slap in the face it could become interesting again...nothing like a depression and massive unemployment...throughout history it's when places start to party again like there's no tomorrow.

On the upside there are so many fabulous places to visit on the way to the UK (Berlin is thriving with a club scene reminiscent of 80s London)

And fortunately with my Irish passport (thanks Granny) it's so easy.
Well said, hedda.