They haven't got a clue about the Lisbon treaty - have any of us? Bores us to tears; that's what we elect politicians to deal with.

You do not buy a dog and bark yourself.

Democracy simply doesn't work. The idiots rise to the surface like scum.

Give them a simplistic slogan which doesn't need thought and they vote for the headline every time.

Morons.

I would not sign a contract unless I had read it. If once I'd read it I did not understand it, I still would not sign.

Same with the Lisbon treaty.

Add to the equation that this treaty was drawn up by unelected officials, without a public mandate.

I would have voted NO also.

very, very true

I am a europhile myself but have nothing against those who are not.

What really annoys me tho is people/newspapers spouting on about something they know sod all about.

I would have voted no too, simply because I'm against this kind of integration with Europe, so this treaty was a non starter with me regardless of content.

I know some people who were persuaded to vote Labour due to the promise of a referendum. This promise was not kept, so maybe sometimes you have to bark yourself because the dog refuses to do so.

Democracy doesn't always work, but I prefer it to the alternative.

It has been argued that the Irish people elected a government to make decisions for them. The people have now voted to reject a policy/treaty which the government would have ratified. So, maybe governments should try to be more in touch with the wishes of the populace before they try to claim to be genuine representatives.

It's been difficult to find any reliable information on the Lisbon treaty, short of reading it which probably won't help much.

Fine Gael, Sinn F

I would never allow a politician to sign a contract that would fundamentally change my life on my behalf.
The powers that politicians hold are NOT their powers, but ours. We loan them these powers to govern for a period of 4-5 years, at the end of which, they must be handed back to us IN TACT, so that a new government can be elected.

The Lisbon Treaty is the latest in a long line of treaties that has seem our powers salami sliced away in a piecemeal fashion. Most of our laws are now made by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. I do not have the power to get rid of them, even if I want to.

Incidentally, the British people have NEVER, I repeat, NEVER, had a full and fair referendum on EU membership. We've had it imposed on us whether we like it or not.

Democracy, I acknowledge, is very, very imperfect, but the vision of the future I have outlined here is far, far worse.

If we really care enough about society - go into politics ourselves and do something about it.

If we care more about ourselves, friends and family - elect people to do that job for us, leave it to them and either re-elect them or fire them.

Of course, they have no power at all. The media rules every single second of our society - way too much power, no responsibility whatsoever. So they push A GOOD STORY - and slant the headlines in that direction.

"Europe has taken over all our powers" - who gives a fuck? Our elected people are locking innocent people up (me for seven years), messing up the economy, giving us huge petrol and oil problems, collapsing home prices - nobody could do it worse.

We freely hand control to Murdoch and Rothermere, all Vile Perverts - I don't give a shit who is nominally in charge.

Whoever it is will screw us, intentionally or incompetently.

So, JK, is your answer that we bury our heads in the sand and do nothing?

Some people do go into politics. I have stood at local level several times, but there are only so many places, and it's hard to break the monopoly and get the media behind you. I also vote for people I think are going to do the best job, but I only have one vote.

We do what we can. We try our best. That's the only way to bring about change, but it takes time, effort and dedication. Surrender and complacency achieves nothing.

I'd much rather trust the public to choose their own destiny,than some corrupted by power politician.

Solihull Exile wrote:
I'd much rather trust the public to choose their own destiny,than some corrupted by power politician.
I wouldn't. We'd have public hangings and floggings, paediatricians' houses being torched and all manner of nastiness before you know it. Every whim of the media would be pandered to, even more so than now.

Marcus wrote:
I would never allow a politician to sign a contract that would fundamentally change my life on my behalf.
The powers that politicians hold are NOT their powers, but ours. We loan them these powers to govern for a period of 4-5 years, at the end of which, they must be handed back to us IN TACT, so that a new government can be elected.

The Lisbon Treaty is the latest in a long line of treaties that has seem our powers salami sliced away in a piecemeal fashion. Most of our laws are now made by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. I do not have the power to get rid of them, even if I want to.

Incidentally, the British people have NEVER, I repeat, NEVER, had a full and fair referendum on EU membership. We've had it imposed on us whether we like it or not.

Democracy, I acknowledge, is very, very imperfect, but the vision of the future I have outlined here is far, far worse.
1975.



JK2006 wrote:
If we really care enough about society - go into politics ourselves and do something about it.

If we care more about ourselves, friends and family - elect people to do that job for us, leave it to them and either re-elect them or fire them.

Of course, they have no power at all. The media rules every single second of our society - way too much power, no responsibility whatsoever. So they push A GOOD STORY - and slant the headlines in that direction.

"Europe has taken over all our powers" - who gives a fuck? Our elected people are locking innocent people up (me for seven years), messing up the economy, giving us huge petrol and oil problems, collapsing home prices - nobody could do it worse.

We freely hand control to Murdoch and Rothermere, all Vile Perverts - I don't give a shit who is nominally in charge.

Whoever it is will screw us, intentionally or incompetently.
Caused by international pressures not caused by the domestic government.

Perhaps we only get the type of reactions because we feel our politicians are not carrying out our wishes?
If people actually can see their wishes being enacted then they'll soon learn to curb their more exaggerated traits.
People are not stupid,but many politicians treat them as such.

zooloo- The 1975 referendum was anything but honest and fair. We were told that the EEC, as it was then, was all about free trade and peace in Europe. Heath, Wilson et al knew at the time that it was a project of political union, but they didn't say so at the time because they knew the British people would never accept it.

JK- it is precisely because I care about my friends, family, and fair trials for people like yourself that I am opposed to the EU. Whatever faults there are with this country and the democratic system (and there are PLENTY), giving up our sovereignty to unelected bodies in Brussels is NOT the answer.

Marcus wrote:
zooloo- The 1975 referendum was anything but honest and fair. We were told that the EEC, as it was then, was all about free trade and peace in Europe. Heath, Wilson et al knew at the time that it was a project of political union, but they didn't say so at the time because they knew the British people would never accept it.

JK- it is precisely because I care about my friends, family, and fair trials for people like yourself that I am opposed to the EU. Whatever faults there are with this country and the democratic system (and there are PLENTY), giving up our sovereignty to unelected bodies in Brussels is NOT the answer.
If Heath and Wilson's intention was political union which they kept quiet about - how do you know this?

You seem to be starting from the point that the EU = bad and then working backwards to confirm this.

This is not sensible and not logical.

The second paragraph illustrates this very well being an extraordinary non sequitur.

The White Paper produced at the time of our entrance into the EEC said, and I quote:

It is true that the British people have not had a proper referendum on joining the European Union. The vote in 1975 was on whether the UK should remain within the European Economic Market. This was an entirely different set up.

The current government were partly elected on a promise to hold a referendum on the European Constitution. They claim that the current treaty is a different thing, although most European leaders acknowledge that it has merely been given a different title. The only reason I can see for them not holding the referendum is that they think the people might vote against the treaty.

Whether we believe that this is a decision for MPs or a decision to be made by a public vote, we surely must agree that Politicians should be held to their promises.

On the side issue of whether democracy would lead to public hangings and house burnings (re. Anthony's post), it was only a tiny minority of people who turned out to cause murder and mayhem after the NotW 'name and shame' campaign. Each time there is a 'massive protest' or outcry following a newspaper revelation it is only a very few who get involved. The majority of people do not respond this way.

Having just returned from Europe and Morocco and experienced on holiday the collapse of the value of the pound compared to the Euro and even the Dirham (my

Dominic Dee wrote:

On the side issue of whether democracy would lead to public hangings and house burnings (re. Anthony's post), it was only a tiny minority of people who turned out to cause murder and mayhem after the NotW 'name and shame' campaign. Each time there is a 'massive protest' or outcry following a newspaper revelation it is only a very few who get involved. The majority of people do not respond this way.
I was guilty of simplistic exaggeration there, but we would have some form of capital and corporal punishment back if the great British public had their way, and that is not something I wish to see in my country.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of our association with mainland Europe, the fact remains that a referendum would probably lead to our withdrawal, and that vote would be based on empty media sensationalism, and not on any sort of considered opinion.

"I was guilty of simplistic exaggeration there, but we would have some form of capital and corporal punishment back if the great British public had their way, and that is not something I wish to see in my country."

So you may not want to see it,and I probally agree with you....but democracy is there for a reason..and the public can only handle democracy if they can see the direct results of their actions.A few well documented excesses will be enough to swing the mood back to a sensible middle ground.
It is precisely because our elected representitives think they know what's best for us that we are in this mess in the first place.

And JK,you have a short memory.When the euro first came in manufacturers were pleading for us to join,as it was low.Now they're glad we didn't.It's killing their exports,while encouraging far too many imports....why is China keeping its currency artificially low?
So your room in Morocco costs more,be a damn site better for us all if more of us realised we'd be doing ourselves a favour by spending more of our hols at home....and looking at how dead Margate is perhaps we should all realise how much a strong pound has killed off whole swathes of Britain.

Most votes are based on empty media sensationalism these days. Tony Blair was elected on slogans and spin, and despite having no real substance was able to get re-elected on slogans and spin. The media were mostly behind him, promoting him and rubbishing the opposition. The media referring to Hague as "Silly Billy" and mocking his baldness, was all empty play and did nothing to highlight the real issues for the public to consider.

So if a referendum was held, it would be no surprise if the votes were based on similar nonsense. However, the right of the people to have some say, regardless of qualifictation, is what helps to prevent us from sliding into a dictatorship where the government can do whatever they like without having to worry about consequences.

Let the people have their say. This government has a track record of dishonesty and unreliability, and they are openly and unashamedly eroding our freedoms. I wouldn't trust them to make any major decisions on my behalf.