Following on from the pub thread it became clear that we had lost the following :

THEATRE VENUES
Astoria
Hammersmith Palais

OTHER VENUES
Spitz
Red Eye
Lark
Docklands Arena

and had gained

O2 Arena
Indigo Arena

and have seen the following closed

The Garage
Ocean ( and opened )

It becomes clear that in the last 5 years we have seen many major venue close or be under threat. I have not included the Electric Ballroom as another under threat venue.

It has been in the sub 2000 capacity where the venues have continued to close. The Dominion is now not used for live music either.

cam anyone else think of others that have closed or opened.

Is our Governments committment to live music illusory ? and if LIVE MUSIC was at its biggest peak why are we seeing venues close at all ? Surely we should have seen a doubling of venues at every level ?

Does the building of sporting venues (Wembley, Emirates, Millennium etc.) - which are now also geared to cater for concerts and other types of entertainment - not impact on the situation ?

These are bigger, more airy and user friendly - in terms of transport and hospitality; they also provide better views of performances and the ability to incorporate lasers/fireworks/lighting etc.

In addition, they are now all-seater and covered - with inbuilt acoustics. And 100's of toilets.

Modern sports stadia also have massive plasma screens (used for score replays) which really enhance pop concerts/performances.

As with the 'pub thread' - times are a'changing; I certainly have no wish to return to the Electric Ballroom !

In NYC, stadia play the major role, as music venues - as does Cental Park. Imagine.

This is like the pub situation. Many smaller venues are being shut down to make way for stadium and arena type places and that is bad news for newer bands already being stung by the hateful "pay to play".

The best gigs I have ever witnessed were in the smaller venues. You could see and hear the performer since they were just feet away and intimate surroundings usually resulted in memorable shows.

When I go to a concert, I want to SEE the artiste in the flesh... not a quarter of a mile away or on a plasma screen. I can stay at home for that. Larger scale shows are the pits... very little atmosphere or intimacy. Then chuck in the curse of mobile phones with many holding those aloft, snapping away or taking videos... it's having a disastrous effect because now the audience are no longer being a part of the whole thing since they are detached by distance and phones.

Hitler was very fond of stadiums wasn't he?

This thread is only applicable to London. There is a world outside London that is not as bad as has been suggested. Many big cities have the problems that have been highlighted here and other threads. NYC, Paris etc all suffer. If life is so bad (and you do seem a rather critical bunch) move out of the place! In the area where i live most of the local shops are independent. They are long standing outlets, some of which have been in the family for generations. Try it. I've been to London, great for shopping and bumping into rude people.

I spend 50% of my time outside London because I organise UK tours and I work with international artists who tour in the UK.

Last week I hosted a couple of major Aussie bands who have toured the UK every other year since 2003. They told me audiences were down all round the UK and painted a very depressing picture of what they were being told by venue owners around the UK.

The Barfly closed Cambridge and Brighton Barflys in the summer - and they are a major chain.

I think New Labour have killed the economy as a whole and when the Official Unemployment figure hits 3 million ( with 2 million hidden compared to the 80s stats ) Then perhaps people will stop peddling half truths and trying to pretend that the economy is not struggling.

I have met loads of people in decent jobs who are friends who have lost their job in the last 4 weeks and several who are struggling to hold onto their business. This is across the UK - not just in London and not just in music to be fair.

Yes - there are some people who have money and those who are working for the Police - Legal System - public servants at the high end - must all be very happy at the moment in their "jobs for life" without being "accountable" must be smiling greatly as those who run businesses and create the money are struggling......but there comes a tipping point where those of us who create REAL money for the rest of you to live off cant do it anymore - at which point I believe we will see massive job losses in Councils - Agencies - Teaching Assistants - PCSOs in around 2010 to pay for the BAILOUT. You can see it coming. That will add a further half a million to the jobless total.

The stock market is not real life by the way. Real life is the London venues closing or being half empty with bookings for next year. Just go look for yourself....and ring a local venue and ask them how business is.......the first way to deal with a problem is to admit there is one.

A minor point, I find it hilarious that you can`t smoke in little venues like Camdens` The Enterprise". Everybody is always on the pavement outside, puffing away with a beer, and the place is as wonderfully English and tatty as it always was!

One wonders what would have happened to Marc Bolan on his regular stints in the room upstairs at the pub with a smoking ban, as I rather imagine there may have been a rather perfumed air up there!