I'm afraid I seem to have a different perspective on this.
It was an awful crime and I'm sad for the kid but he's dead and there's no bringing him back.
Mend the system - yes. Stop it happening again - yes.
But don't use it as a way to harm and persecute others.
All this BLAME SOMEONE - HURT SOMEONE is dreadful.

And all the hate and bile poured on the poor perpetrators is horrid. They need help, kindness, decency.
They obviously never had any or they wouldn't have done it.
The worst punishment they can ever have is the knowledge that they committed the crime.

Why do so many people allow hate to breed hate?

I can't believe you thought it...can't fathom you've posted it. Un fuckin believable. Cuddle those who torture kids. Thank fuck you arent in politics. You complete idiot! And I dont read the tabloids.

Well I'm Not... to me, further hatred is not the answer. Forgiveness, kindness, help, decency... it's what Baby P deserved and should have had, not hatred and violence and nastiness and cruelty.

But I suppose vengeance is an option for most.

An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

They had been committing crimes against Baby P for several months, so I don't think they will be all that tormented by the knowledge of what they've done. Maybe by the sentence they've been landed with, but they made their choices and must have known there would be consequences.

I also think it is right that those who's job it was to protect the child lost their jobs, because they were obviously incapable of doing that job.

And can somebody tell the newsreaders Victoria Climbie was not called Columbia?

Nothing to do with vengeance...everything to do with punishment. This is where you get it wrong JK. Why not put your money where your mouth is and donate to Barnardo's? Or are there too many victims under one roof for you to deal with? Or perhaps Baby P staged the entire thing? Or perhaps you simply don't know the difference between right and wrong?

No; it was terribly wrong. Evil. Wicked.
I just don't believe in spreading more cruelty and hatred and wickedness and evil.
I think treating people who do bad things in a bad way is not very intelligent.

And all this tabloid campaign (successful) seems totally "Fire the child protection people" which translates as "ruin their lives; punish them" when the crusade should be "make sure the system works in future and this never happens again".
It is "mend hate with hate". It should be "stop hate with love".

Nonsense! Adults who kill kids...show them no mercy... doctors who kill their patients...and dictators who torture and kill their own citizens should be punished. It is possible to rehabilitate the sick and punish them too. Should those responsible for the Holocaust have been treated with kindness? Criminals love the soft outcome. It makes them laugh. Like that or not it's true.

If the system is failing because the wrong people are in it, then the answer must be to replace the people. This isn't vengeance. It is taking steps to make sure the same mistakes are not made again.

It's no different to sacking bad police officers (Ian Blair) or voting out bad governments.

I'm thoroughly in favour of replacing bad executives. I just don't believe in torturing them. I don't want to ruin their lives; I want to improve the system.
I want accountability but I don't approve of deliberate and gleeful nastiness - however we may pretend to justify it.

Incarceration, punishment, rehabilitation, education - I believe every human being deserves to be treated with kindness and if we don't do that we are no better than them.

People who hiss and jeer and boo are simply justifying their own bile.

If we "show no mercy" we become like them.

Eye for and eye... a plea for escalation or limitation?

The whole punishment thing has always made me uneasy. Punishment is too close to vengeance. Some must be locked away, but even the vilest criminal deserves basic decency, and the chance for rehabilitation. If the chance is not taken then the incarceration has to continue indefinitely, but for our protection, not punishment. Surely this is a healthier definition of justice than the spiral of nastiness from which humanity has still not freed itself.

As for the Baby P case, I do fear that local authorities will be so afraid of a repeat that all parents will become potential victims, children taken away from innocent parents, and more lives destroyed. Lessons to be learned? Of course, but not drastic solutions, just to placate the baying masses via the media.

Allow me to apologise to JK for my initial reaction. At least you have the decency to publish every post, even the detrimental spiteful ones. For that you should be saluted. I understand your point, but I do feel that there will always be those crims who will take advantage of 'kindness' and the softly softly approach. For some, prison alone is not a deterrent. It is for me, as the thought of having someone crap in a bucket by my bed is enough to fill me with dread. I am not advocating the return of the rack,but I do believe all prisoners should have to work for thir privileges. Deprive them of tobacco and all the other little luxuries in life, until such time they have at least shown remorse for their actions. Apparently the killers of Baby P have not indicated they are regretful for their appalling actions toward a defenceless child. In a nutshell JK, you and I will always respond well to acts of kindness...some will simply use 'kindness' to their advantage and piss over it at the earliest opportunity. Nope. I believe all prisoners should first show true regret, and then work towards kindness and gratitude being shown them. It should never be handed to them on a plate. That isn't such a stupid policy if you think about it. Mollycoddling and rewarding cruel and calculated killers is not in the interests of rehabilitation. Casually accepting their evilness, is not the way forward with some people. They will simply get a kick out of it. If you recall the laughing sneering face of Roy Whiting as he was driven away to a lifetime behind bars. No remorse, no regrets. Sorry. But I'm all for having them work 12 hour shifts breaking rocks. That should be sufficient to wipe away the smug faces. Kindness is a two way street isn't it? That's what I was always taught.

I don't agree It's Not... and in fact this highlights the problem.

Kindness is NOT a two way street - it's essential, no matter what reaction it gets. Helping people should not, in my book, depend on successful reactions - it is a basic vital ingredient of humanity, like decency and tolerance.

Charity, to me, has always been something we should do naturally without expecting reward. That's why I hate the Geldof celebrity charity route.

And I think we suffer in the end if we give out hatred. The hounding of individuals in child protection may be A GOOD STORY - God knows how the tabloids would cope without people to smear and sneer at - but the result will be that nobody with any brains will want to work in child protection in the future - just like there are no new male teachers these days; men with brains avoid future false allegations.

So the direct result of all this vindictive, nasty, exciting, circulation boosting hysteria will inevitably be more dead and abused children.

The stoopids rool and headline justice backfires....

No, sorry, it doesn't... it provides future GREAT STORIES, which is all the meeejah wants and those of us with brains in it know it, see it, understand it and are not allowed to say it.

Superb thread. I was dreadfully uneasy about the murder of Saddam Hussein for instance.

I dont believe in vengeance or "evening the score" I believe that God ( or karma if you dont believe in God ) basically judges us.

However, despite forgiveness needing to be central to any decent system - punishment can be part of that system. Though ruining other people's live is certainly not a positive thing.

In the Baby P case those responsbible killed a child and need to serve some time in prison ( in fact Murder & violence and Theft are the only things which need custodial sentences in my view ) The social services people who are incompetent need to be removed so that it less likely to happen again.

There is a culture within Social Services that worries me greatly - like many other P C organisations they value paperwork above the reality of face to face decision making. This has dehumanised most Government services in recent years.

Forgiveness is important - justice does require some punishment in the worst of crimes. That is not vengeance. Though I totally disagree with capital punishment of any sort.

Baby P is the sad result of a bad and corrupt system.

Vengenace upon the perpetuators will result in nothing except vengeance..no lessons will be learnt.

Police know the extent of real child abuse in society yet they are prepared to concentrate resources on insane ventures like the Jersey House of Horrors. How many millions has that cost ?..millions that could have been diverted towards child abuse prevention via properly trained social workers.

Why should social workers have more resources ? (and who would be one these days anyway considering it could lead to a jail sentence if you aren't on the ball ?)

The government will learn nothing from the Baby P tragedy-the media laps up this and similar tragedies and if there is a sexual element-all the better.

Anyway, why would politicians in a government that assisted in blasting to death thousands of Iraqi Baby Ps care about 1 case in the UK ?>

The police are partly to blame as they would rather chase the 'pedos behind every bush' scenario-they promote the idea and by doing so help divert attention from cases like Baby P. whilst they are actually happening.

The government is too gutless to admit it has got it all wrong and will not put money where prevention will work-rather it will pursue vengeance as well. It's easier, it's quicker and it gets the headlines. Moreover-most politicans and police-indeed most people don't realy give a toss about the Baby P. cases whilst they are happening but they demand vengeance as it salves their conscience after the event.

Child abuse, sexual abuse and death get 'sexy' headlines. Social workers devoid of funds to adequately pursue prevention and nip the Baby P cases in the bud isn't good copy. It's boring stuff. The whereabouts of Gary Glitter is far more important.

The system is broke and the main players will never admit it because to do so would reflect upon their non action.

Weep for Baby P and the future Baby P's as there will be more.

The general public with it's 5 minute attention span shares blame as it lives from story to story and what happens between is of little interest.

Some excellent points Veritas. But we have to be sure 'kindness' doesn't become 'nannying' and that punishment can go side by side with education, rehabilitation and hard work. You mention Iraq...fair point, but that doesn't mean we can allow mad axe men free reign to walk the streets. Balance is the key word. Those who can callously beat to death an elderly lady in her own home deserve punishment, not hugged and told they are 'nice people'. Make them break rocks, make them study, deny them privileges, until such time they show true remorse and are willing to conform to prison rules and move on.

and again I'm Not... (you're going to go right off me) I have to differ.

a) I cannot see why punishment excludes kindness and

b) I hate all this "remorse" stuff. It is so easy to fake and who cares anyway? The future matters, not the past. It's crucial they never do it again; it doesn't matter at all whether they feel sorry for doing it in the past.

Nah...I havent gone orf you. But might I ask one more thing. Would your hand of kindness stretch to those convicted of making untrue accusations in the witness stand?

Yes, absolutely it does.
Again; they should be punished. Those encouraging them and assisting them should be accountable - and be punished too. But all should be done with kindness. They are suffering from a subtle, unpleasant but lethal form of mental illness. Deliberately acting to hurt others (especially for your own gain) is wrong and must be dealt with. They must be prevented from doing it again.

But make their lives miserable? No, no, absolutely not.

I would not wish it upon my worst enemy, let alone a false accuser, to suffer strokes and become a dribbling vegetable. But karma has a habit of turning the bitterness inside one against oneself. Bad actions are their own punishment in the long run.

And automatically kicking out those who tried to do what they thought best - and sometimes failed? Not always. In the long run genuine victims of crime and abuse will suffer if those dealing with such crimes dare not try to correct them.