This new footage of police behaviour, when coupled with the previous footage of the vile police thug pushing the future heart attack victim to the ground, opens in the public's mind the dreadful suspicion - perhaps police do often behave badly.

Even the meejah ('cause it's a good story) are picking up on it.

One stage further - could all these miscarriages of justice also have been caused by dodgy and immoral police behaviour?

Are we slowly moving forward?
Or will everyone (we are all cowards) shelter behind the desperate hope that all is fine in society?

I saw the footage on Newsnight. The policeman had much more in common with the archetype SS bully than the good old British bobby. It was like watching footage of Krystalnacht. Surely specialist polce units like the Met's Territorial Suport Unit train their officers to cope with pressure situations? I wonder... The man's body language spoke even louder than his actions. Everything about him said "violent and looking for some." Nothing was more apparent than the fact that he was just itching for a fight. And this guy is a sergeant in a branch of the police force deployed in situations where diplomacy is even more neccessary than usual. Ye Gods. That it has come to this. Sorry, JK... there's nothing "wonderful" about this. It's horribly depressing.

I wonder if they are "reformed Droogs", the place has gone very Clockwork Orange

Yesterday morning I noticed a police car parked on double yellows.The driver was in the cafe eating some breakfast.
If they can't even respect the most basic of laws how can we expect other laws and norms to be obeyed?

Interesting person on Radio 2 phone in. Ex Female Police Officer - saying many Police actually disagree with the "political" role they are being asked to do -and saying that they are a "target" for those protesting against the Government.

I tend to agree because we are now a "police state" and have become one without any debate or vote.

I think we are on very dangerous ground and see the comparisons with the SS as being right and not wonderful.

The Police have never been angels. But at least we felt they were there to keep the peace and as an "organisation" they were there for law and order. Now most of us see them as a Political Force who are there to back the Government of the day and that they are beyond the law themselves ( The cafe double yellow lines is just one of thousands of examples )

Until there is an independent Watchdog to sack naughty police it will always be like this. At the moment they get away with everything. It is a job for thugs.

We need a change in Government and a new Commissioner VOTED FOR by the PEOPLE. The head of the MET should be elected and we should get a choice of at least 10 people. Locally there should be elected Chief Constables. If policing is bad then they should lose their job every 4 years.

There is no accountability for the Police. No OFSTED or Inspection process. They need to be stopped before they run the country.

While I'd agree with you, BR, on the need for a change in the way we are policed I'd say that you have grasped entirely the wrong end of the nettle.

Reform - and the system needs nothing less - should first approach the overall demeanour of every police force in the country. IA has identified a fundamental problem, and that is that as long as our police service regard the law as being their own personal toy an attiude that "the job" is an entitlement to operate tangentially to it is just too good an opportunity to miss. The IPC is in many respects little more than a poor joke unless it embraces a vigorous attitude to its actual remit, and it's demonstrable that rather than acting as a cleaning agent the attitude is very much one of keeping things "in house". Any reform should start first with the fundamentals, as Veritas said in another thread justice should be tempered by mercy in any civilised society.
But where you go wrong - and horribly so - is to suggest that
"We need a change in Government and a new Commissioner VOTED FOR by the PEOPLE. The head of the MET should be elected and we should get a choice of at least 10 people. Locally there should be elected Chief Constables. If policing is bad then they should lose their job every 4 years.",
and it's that I'd like to demolish if you'd be so kind as to allow.

Policing by plebiscite? Are you serious? It's a matter of historical record that it was "The Sun" which got Mrs Thatcher into Number 10 and, when more recent events are chronicled, I'd strongly suggest that the same will be said of Tony Bliar... sorry, Blair. The British public want hanging brough back. And if you conducted any public poll they'd start by hanging Gary Glitter, Chris Langham, probably JK and me, along with all the other "nonces" that the media tells them they must hate. Any elected official must campaign, and the way we are policed {thefore the way what we laughlingly refer to as "The Constitution"
- habeas corpus, Magna Carta et al - is applied} becomes a matter for whatever way the wind blows for Murdoch and his willing band of sheep. Is that honestly what you want? A land where every four years {or whatever} everyone gets to vote for whichever bigot or axegrinder they want?
No, the police need to be commanded by someone entirely independent of politics, business or public interests, much in the same way as the police themselves should be. Someone vetted for religious or political bias, someone who embraces philosophical rather than dogmatic values. Someone appointed not by the fickle wiles of the Great British Public but by... well, I don't know who by because this whole thisngs a sorry mess that cuts to the heart of life in this country in the 21st century. But I do know that if you leave it up to a vote you'll get a successful candidate who has been selected at least in part by a homophobic, blinkered, xenophobic, racist electorate who believe that Gene Hunt is an admirable character and the police could do with some real policemen like that these days.
I honestly don't know what the answer is. But I know that we can't simply elect our way out of it. The national mindset is wrong. And that's where we have to start.

I'm with you LO and have to say; quite clearly Democracy doesn't work.

The rule of the majority is the rule of the brain dead.

Only benign autocracy will work and sadly even the most benign dictator goes mad.

Power corrupts.

The answer? Let's do away with the human species and start again.

I vote for tigers.

What would have happenned had you choosen to go into politics JK?

I am not a great believer in "national democracy" but in terms of local decisions surely the best way is to allow people a vote ?

I know our current system is corrupt and does not work and many people have come to the conclusion it is broken. But to say that having a say in Policing is wrong I disagree. We need to be Policed by consent - and that means us having some say.

I cant see any other way to be fair. Our democratic system is too entrenched for it to be changed anytime in the future that I can see. Therefore we need to work within what will work.

Take for instance Sir Ian Blair - he would never have survived the De Menezes scandal if he was an elected Chief Constable. Therefore the courts and so on MAY have been able to charge the murderering firearms officers or at least sack them. As it is now - they are still on duty out there ON OUR STREETS with those guns. I am more afraid of that than terrorists to be fair. A democratic system would have dealt with this I believe.

I see the Police as a necessary evil in a society that is greed driven. Not least to keep public order. But at the moment they are being used to carry out Government policy. The arrests in Nottingham and North West are examples of this. Silly arrests with no charges likely ( GREENING ! ) and why ? to intimidate a) Islamics and b) Protest groups of any sort. Both "smell"like the actions the Gestapo and SS took against opposition in Nazi Germany. The Police are now POLITICAL. They are not OUR police. Until we get a say this will now be the case - hence my argument that we need demorcratic intervention to bring the police in line.

It really is scraping the barrel .

Hopefully changes brought in will just allow the armed forces to turn a hose on "demonstrators" and wash them away.

As usual it's an excuse for that fucking Chakrabarti woman to get her face on TV and claim violations of human rights. Doesn't she have a convicted child murderer to defend against deportation at the moment ?