I refuse to be racist and some of my best friends are Germans but banning contraception is about as close as you can get to setting up concentration camps.

I have difficulties with this Pope because he was in the Hitler Youth. I am sure he is a very nice man - but it seems strange that God has chosen an ex follower of Hitler to be his chosen representative on Earth.

I also cant find anything in the bible about contraception or anything which would suggest that sex is only for procreation. It is also for love and to cement a relationship as far as I can see from the Bible. So I agree it is a strange position for the Pope to take. I do think that abortion is wrong because once life has started it is wrong to kill. Which is one of the 10 commandments - so has a biblical basis.

What makes me laugh in the Bible Love all we are all equal it don't condemn Homosexuals.

The most sucessful religions encourage their faithful to reproduce,commonsense really.Muslims are growing,christians are shrinking.
We do need to keep our population up to pay for all these pensioners.Best way to do that is to encourage our own to have more children,rather than import people who have no attatchment to our way of life.
That said,there is no mention of contraception in the bible,so it's not god's law,but a local custom initiated at the turn of the last century.
Let us not forget that Popes only became infaliable after the catholic church lost its land to a new united Italy after Garibaldi's Risorgimento.Then suddenly an ex Hitler youth's words became god's!

Show me where the bible says to "hate" homosexuals ? I have not found that anywhere.

Religion seems to add to what God has revealed....often by twisting the original values and morals. Of course the Pope would say he is interpreting modern life in the light of truth and the bible......which may or may not be true.

It is a very difficult one really.

Your comparison of the Pope to the SS is unfair!

The SS had it's good points.

BR wrote:
Show me where the bible says to "hate" homosexuals ? I have not found that anywhere.

Religion seems to add to what God has revealed....often by twisting the original values and morals. Of course the Pope would say he is interpreting modern life in the light of truth and the bible......which may or may not be true.

It is a very difficult one really.
Leviticus:

18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Christians follow the New Testament more than the Old, so the most relevent passages are

Romans 1:26-27 "for even their females exchanged the natural use for that which is contrary to nature, and likewise also the males, having left the natural use of the female, were inflamed by their lust for one another, males with males, committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was fitting for their error."

and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 "Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor practicing homosexuals nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

The strict teachings of the Catholic Church have been against contraception for centuries. I'm never sure why people are surprised that a Pope will preach Catholic doctrine. He can't change the rules. His job is to help promote and enforce them. I'm not a Catholic and I'm not against contraception, but I wouldn't expect a Pope to adopt a non Catholic view.

The great Bill Hicks once said that Christians twist the Bible message to their own ends. That could be said of all religion. It is devisive and corrupt in all its forms. The Bible is a book of wonderful stories, nothing more ,nothing less. Religion keeps people in their place with empty promises of a happy lie when you die. No point in that if you not here to enjoy it. I believe the Bible said "There will be war and rumours of war and nation will turn against nation". The religions of the world are certainly making sure that bit is coming true. The pace on earth bit seems to have got trampled in the rush to the ammo box.

Interesting alternative view here

www.google.co.uk/search?source=ig&am...h&meta=lr%3D

giles2008 wrote:
The great Bill Hicks once said that Christians twist the Bible message to their own ends. That could be said of all religion. It is devisive and corrupt in all its forms. The Bible is a book of wonderful stories, nothing more ,nothing less. Religion keeps people in their place with empty promises of a happy lie when you die. No point in that if you not here to enjoy it. I believe the Bible said "There will be war and rumours of war and nation will turn against nation". The religions of the world are certainly making sure that bit is coming true. The pace on earth bit seems to have got trampled in the rush to the ammo box.

Interesting alternative view here

www.google.co.uk/search?source=ig&am...h&meta=lr%3D

When the Bible is obviously batshit insane then it needs "interpretation". On the rare occasion it makes sense then the text needs no interpretation

The Bible is the inerrant Word of God and should be obeyed... unless it is inconvenient.

BR wrote:
I have difficulties with this Pope because he was in the Hitler Youth.

Er, i don't think he had a choice in the matter. Your confusing Hitler Youth with the Boy Scouts.

The Bible for Christians is the New Testament which was to replace the Old. Therefore the lists in the Old Testament dont really count !!

As for the other passages - none of them says Homosexuals are to be hated and certainly when reading the word of Christ himself I dont find anything to suggest that "hate" is something that he thought was a good thing.

I expect you have all heard the "What would Jesus do/say" culture from the USA - but to a certain extent that is relevant to all of this. The Pope joined Hitler Youth - would Jesus have done that ? I think not - I think he would have expected to be killed for his beliefs at that point ( as he was at a young age for not being prepared to say what the Romans wanted )

Therefore sad to say the Pope needs a better story than he was "conscripted" !!!

There is much that is amazing in following God and many of those who do have a religion are incredible. However, like our MPs it seems that institutions that run religion generally corrupt themselves. I have no idea what the answer to this is.....

The bible (new testaments) were written long after Jesus Christ died on the cross (or did he ?) and are basically poltical manifestos.

If you look to any passages reputedly said by Christ himself he only expresses eternal love etc and was pretty well the first hippie/socialist who can't be faulted, in my view.

Perhaps the various passages raging against gays, hookers and so, were aimed at the Romans were any Roman citizen of note had at least one concubine/catamate on staff and it was regarded as normal.

Indeed the history of the Catholic Church has been highly poltical and the 'ban' on contraception is a device to increase the flock.

Is it so different to the former Treasurer here in Australia who for 10 years kept exorting people to have "one for the family and one for the country" to increase population / consumers ?.

But don't we all know Catholics who either claim to be 'lapsed' or defy the church and do what they want?.

It's not like the Pope can impose his will-just make rules that aren't necessarily followed. (anyone checked on the Vatican's own laws on age of consent etc..pretty much anything goes there !)

As for being in the Hitler Youth..althought the Vatican now say he wasn't-it was basically compulsorary and not too disimilar to the Boy Scouts. The Young Pioneers that still exists in the Communist countries aren't too disimilar except they don't preach racial superiority.

I have a friend who was in them also but later went on to become fairly high up in the German Communist Party. I think you have to investigate a person's past a bit more than just being a member of a group.

Let's not forget Lord Baden Powel's scouting movement really was the model for the Hitler Youth League and he formed the idea as far back as during the Boer War when he explained to a fellow officer hs plan to take lads out camping and such and his colleague told him he could "get ten years for that !"

I think it's safe to say that the Pope was not the Pope when he was in the Hitler Youth. Christianity is about putting the old behind you and embracing the new. It's about forgiveness and beginning a new life in Christ. So the fact the the Pope was in the Hitler Youth over half a century ago should not stop him from being a Church leader. Remember that the Apostle Paul used to sentence Christians to death. He described himself as the worst of sinners. But then he had the raod to Damascas experience and his entire life was turned around.

If the Pope still had connections with the Nazi party it would be different, but there is no evidence of that being the case.

Has the pope actually said that we should hate homosexuals? More like he has spoken against homosexual behaviour rather than the people themselves. The main Christian message is that God's love is for everyone, even sinners, but they must turn away from their sinful ways before they can experience the benefits of God's love. It's like if I have a friend who is on drugs. I won't stop being their friend, but they cannot bring their drugs into my house.

Baden Powell was the most famous old boy from Charterhouse before I went there!

As for gays and abortion and so on, I'd say the church (all churches) have learned a lot in dealing with the punters and the media; even killing is delicately clothed in forgiveness and other justifications.

Bugger a few boys, murder some people, abort babies and half a dozen Hail Marys cleans your record.

Emma Bee wrote:


Has the pope actually said that we should hate homosexuals? More like he has spoken against homosexual behaviour rather than the people themselves. The main Christian message is that God's love is for everyone, even sinners, but they must turn away from their sinful ways before they can experience the benefits of God's love. It's like if I have a friend who is on drugs. I won't stop being their friend, but they cannot bring their drugs into my house.

errmmm, equating homosexual behaviour with drug abuse... hang on there...

I am so fed up with those christians who say they love the homosexual but hate the behaviour.... how patronising! so are gay folk supposed to abstain from sexual contact while heterosexual folk are not? I am gay, was born this way (thanks God ) and know nothing else. It is natural for me to show my love for my partner in a sexual way just as it is for a heterosexual person.

And as for Christians who say that sex between man and woman is natural because it leads to procreation- errmmm, are we saying that the only time heterosexual people have sex with their partner is when they are trying for a baby?

I wish certain christians would get over their obsession with sex.

At what point did Jesus say he was replacing the Old Testament (IRC he said it should stand)

Stoning homosexuals is not being hateful? I suppose it's an act of "tough love"!

Christians don't stone anyone, Zooloo.

Maybe you are thinking about Muslims.

Emma Bee wrote:
Christians don't stone anyone, Zooloo.

Maybe you are thinking about Muslims.

yes, christians don't stone people and muslims do.

tell that to my friend Tanya who attended a Convent School in Ireland and was repeatedly beaten by nuns with a stick just for looking at a boy....

tell that to the many victims of the institutionalised child abuse at the hands of the Catholic Church.

tell that to the many victims of the alliance between the Catholic Church and the Nazi Party in Germany.

I am not seeking to judge here.

I am aware that many people use their "faith" to commit atrocities. What I want to say is that these people can be Christian as well as Muslim or any other faith (I practice Buddhism), but we should not use labels to perpetuate the "us and them" belief system that demonises the "others"

There are also good people of all faiths and none.

I'd suggest that this has gone off topic {as if that was anything to do with me!}. That being said I'd like to make a suggestion. When homosexuals start publicly bleating about how distasteful heterosexual acts are to them, those of us who subscribe to differing sexual mores will have a right to criticise what they do. In my experience prejudice has a tendency to be rather one sided in this area, and it's the straight community who do most of the shouting. I think I'm straight, although I don't believe that anyone is one hundred percent anything. Each to his own. Gay or straight matters not one iota. People are people. And what they choose to do together is no one else's damn' business. Straights {even the devout ones} have their share of skeletons in their various closets, something they tend to keep rather quiet about whilst condemning those more honest than themselves. As a great man once said, "let he who is without sin..." In my experience people don't tend to have stainless characters, something they should perhaps bear in mind before rushing to make judgements or pronouncements on the practices of others. You may genuinely believe that the physical expression of homosexual love is "sinful" and I'd be the last person to tell you you don't have the right to believe what you like. But to assume that no one will disagree with you when you trot out your own little piece of personal bigotry is both presumptious and dangerous. The only real sin is causing harm through ignorance. Something which, I think, tends to be a problem which is mainly the preserve of the heterosexual.