Another clear example of muddying the water.

Is it just me or are all of these ploys incredibly obvious?

JK good point.

The thrust of the SPIN CAMPAIGN is not News International at all. It is purely a New Labour Campaign against David Cameron purely because he employs Andy Coulson.

It is a storm in a teacup. Today we had Charles Clarke reluctantly doorstepping David Cameron on the issue live on Sky News to give him a letter complaining not about News International but Andy Coulson.

The target is DAVID CAMERON and his "Judgement" - this has nothing to do with News International and everything to do with winning an election by smearing your opponents.

During the last 12 months we have seen TORIES arrested in Parliament because Jacqui Smith was angry and wanted to stop leaks. We have had loads of other attempts by New Labour to smear individual tories but they have all failed.

We now get a smear on someone who is not even a Tory but a Press Officer. Which is really showing how desperate New Labour actually are.

Though all of us on here recognise the "evil" aspect of News of the World and the way it destroys lives - sadly this story will not touch the newspaper as John Yates said yesterday. They already have the evidence about tapping and it was only enough to charge two people - one of which went to jail I might add.

At the time Andy Coulson was totally vindicated. Individual journalists as we all know use THEIR OWN methods to get stories. The editors just receive copy and judge whether the copy in itself is legal or illegal with advice.

If the press genuinely uncover a story in the Public interest it is actually good for all of us. Like the Telegraph with the expenses scandal.

This is not such a story - it is a managed smear campaign with no legs at all. So far not one piece of evidence has backed up the Guardian's claims - they have produced no evidence at all - just innuendos which BBC and SKY are repeating as fact.

The whole issue of evidence is a tricky one - our media has become REPEATERS - in other words one person starts a STORY and then it is repeated so many times that a source is then created for the rumour even though if you go back to where it came from it has no validity.

That is why in the David Kelly thread below at the moment I was trying to show this. Evidence is not just a link or a source.

For instance JK's personal testimony of what happened to him in the legal system is far more powerful than any newspaper story or opinion. Because it is real. Yes all sources have an element of bias in them - which needs to be taken into account. Everyone has a perspective - even if we are neutral.

This particular story is struggling today to stay in the media - they even wheeled out MAX CLIFFORD on the news - who looked very uncomfortable talking about the situation.

IT will be over by Monday unless they find something of importance.

Journalists probably get taps on each other "for career purposes" hence Rebekkah Wade was probably targeted on that basis......nothing to do with the editor of NOTW.

I have to disagree with you BR..not about the appaling Labour government but I believe this is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.

Financially it won't hurt the NoTW-insurance will take care of any payouts (but they'll have some whopping premiums after) and most certainly some hacks will be thrown to the dogs.

I doubt Coulson can survive this either-Cameron should cut him loose now.

It won't kill off the NoTW though..that will survive but what little credibility it has is filtering away.

But it's another nail in the coffin.

The real problem is Murdoch's corporate structure and it's as shaky as it gets. Huge investors still let Rupert have his way as the bottom line is profit but once he goes, his empire will collapse and be broken up.

I just wish I'd been bugged!

I reckon BR that this scandal has a potential to blow sky-high and expose so many people that it's almost impossible to predict an outcome.

Polly Toynbee's piece on Sky is pretty interesting :

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/ju...murdoch-andy-coulson

There are some really odd moves afoot here and as with all good conspiracies-just working out what is the conspiracy is the hardest bit.

2 things I've rabbited on about before touch on this whole matter: the power of the Murdoch media which has shaped governments and policy in several continents to benefit Murdoch corporations.

This began with Murdoch's outrageous manipulation of a currency regulations in Australia in the 1960's when he first tried to buy the News Of The World. Laws at the time prevented him from moving capital abroad.

His broadsheets published a story linking the then Prime Minister to a known Soviet sympathiser on shaky evidence. Despite it being a fable it was enough for a party room brawl to install a new Murdoch friendly PM who immediately relaxed those currency controls. This is no secret-Murdoch has boasted of it.

The rest is history with his backing or withdrawal of support from political parties in the USA, UK and Oz.

With Obama being instaled as president the Democrats have deliberately sidelined News Corp media in the US and it's worked. With his bringing ofFox News into line suddenly it's power has evaporated.

Likewise in Australia where Murdoch had supported the horrendous idealogue and Bush 'deputy sheriff' John Howard and kept the Labor Party out of power for 11 years .

Labor was decimated with the demise of the very clever PM Paul Keating in one of the most ruthless News Corp campaigns that castigated him for arrogance and his once insignificant action of puttIng his arm around HRH The Queen..he was dubbed the 'Lizard Of Oz'..a witty Sun title but it worked.

News Corp kept Howard in office almost singe-handedly until Kevin Rudd appeared and with a strange nerdish quality (but with a razor sharp brain hidden beneath the surface) seemed to win the favour of the electorate as a 'safe' alternative.

News Corp went into overdrive and rolled out scandals like Rudd's lunch date with 2 shonky lobbyists in Perth.

Paul Keating dubbed them the "Arthur Daley and Terry of West Australia politics". His humour was used with devastating effect as he described Howard as exciting as a 'desicated coconut". Every media outlet rolled out the humour except News Corp which began to look rather silly as it pompously attacked Keating and tried to defend Howard.

And the Murdoch's New York Post Editor a month before the general election just happened to recall he had taken the religious Kevin Rudd to a strip club in New York when Rudd was a diplomat. For any other politician..particularly a fairly conservative Christian one it would have meant political death.

It backfired badly..the electorate simply thought it made Rudd look more human..still nerdish but one of the blokes!. His poll ratings soared.

This has continued until just 6 weeks ago News Corp publications allowed themselves to be lured into a disastrous attempt to link the PM with a second hand car dealer and supposed influence all with a dodgy fake email. This time it's devastated most News Ltd newspapers and their political writers.

As the internet rises and their influence falls they have come out screeching and the general public is yawning..Rudd remains the most popular PM in the countries history without Murdoch's backing.

So the USA & Australia have both stood up to the bullying of Murdoch media and like all bullies they have suddenly been exposed.

The difficulty in Britain is that Murdoch's power is still dominant but for how long ?.

You touch on this BR with Brown & Nu Labour and their obvious discomfit-do they go for the attack on the NoTW..as they should..or pay lip service.

I reckon if they went on the attack they would diminish Murdoch's supremacy and power to manipulate elections for all time.

Cameron should boot Coulson. He's only got him because of Coulson's access and experience but that could be come a lead weight around his neck in a very short time.