in Sunday Times Style section... isn't the oddest thing about these days the condemning of past behaviour by the current morality? I thought this during my farcical prosecution. Back in the 60s our attitude to priests fiddling with choirboys was "it happens - enjoy it and get over it". Or leave the fucking choir!

JK2006 wrote:
Back in the 60s our attitude to priests fiddling with choirboys was "it happens - enjoy it and get over it". Or leave the fucking choir!

I shall tell that to my friend who was routinely abused by a priest, and still bears the deep psychological scars today. I am sure she will appreciate your compassion.

Appalling comment.

Well, if that abuse damaged her I'm sorry for it but I still consider most people those days knew exactly what was potentially happening and chose to get out if they didn't like it whereas the ensuing hysteria has persuaded many who simply shrugged their shoulders at the time that the effects should have been worse than they in fact were. It is easy these days to attribute problems to such routine experiences. Was it really the abuse that damaged her, I wonder, or has she learned to blame it for other problems?

JK2006 wrote:
Was it really the abuse that damaged her, I wonder, or has she learned to blame it for other problems?

No JK, she has not learned to blame it for other problems. Instead she has fought to understand it and to gain the strength to go return to (a different) church. It has been a very painful and frightening process for her and has taken her years, but she has finally done it.

No one believed her at the time, least of all her family (where her brother was also abusing her).

A priest, like a teacher, is in a position of authority often in loco parentis. Using that status to commit sexual abuse on children who are looking to you for guidance and support is a serious crime.

Yes - at worst it is a serious crime and at least it is an abuse of position but there are far too many people encouraged to blame others when told by well meaning helpers "it's not your fault"... often it IS your fault - at least in the way you handled it - and it is better to understand that, accept that and move on than to blame others. Of course there are some terrible situations, and your friend's may well have been that, but they are now considered the norm; all I'm saying is that many cases, now considered appalling, were not so at the time and could have been dealt with differently.

Leaving aside the mass of false allegations inspired by this climate, and not wishing to go to the other ridiculous extreme of saying there were never any abuses, the changes in attitude and morality over the years is frequently - indeed almost universally - ignored in commentary today. It was simply not regarded as that bad or unusual in the 60s and many young church goers could - and would - have reported and rejected such advances then without trauma or huge scandal. That is precisely why so many priests and vicars and teachers and doctors were disciplined, punished and/or moved away at the time.

Condemning all such cases as extremes helps nobody.

JK2006 wrote:
. That is precisely why so many priests and vicars and teachers and doctors were disciplined, punished and/or moved away at the time.



(apologies- I seem to be posting on this issue in 2 different threads, but my points are different).

I think I can agree with most of your post above, JK. But the main thrust of the current issue is that it is alledged that priests were not properly disciplined. Moved away, yes- but surely that was very inappropriate. The case of the priest in the US who apparently abused up to 200 deaf kids is shocking. The Vatican, at least up to and including the level of Cardinal Ratzinger, knew of this case. French tv today provided proof of this in the form of a letter to Ratzinger.

It would seem that the alledgedly offending priest was simply moved away to another area, where he could do the same again. Appalling if true.

As for kids receiving counselling, maybe- but what of those who were (apparently) made to sign vows of silence?

JK, I appreciate that as a victim of false accusers yourself, you are naturally more vigilant and aware than most about how false allegations can be used to convict. I love Vile Pervert and it has opened my eyes considerably. But let's not go to the other extreme as I felt you were doing in your opening post of implying that they were all enjoying it otherwise they would have left the f***g choir. Abuse is complex and if the child is young he or she can be confused by what is going on and therefore afraid to do anything about it.

One last point if I may

You implied that my friend might have learned to blame subsequent problems on earlier abuse. Now as you don't know me or my friend I didn't take that personally and I get the point you were making, as I recognised it from Vile Pervert.

But I would say this: I was a victim of abuse myself (tho not sexual) which caused me serious childhood trauma. The effects of that trauma are still with me today in the form of mental health issues which have been at times very severe. I remember the Clinical Psychologist who treated me for a year and a half quite recently saying that childhood trauma and abuse almost inevitably result in mental health problems which last into adulthood and that they are very difficult to treat.

So I take your points about false allegations and blaming issues in your life on earlier abuse. But neither I nor my friend have ever sought to make money out of what happened and have not gone to the media.

This is a complex and multi faceted issue David; of course my rather glib opening remark skated over the more complex and damaging areas. And I think those who take advantage of the vulnerable (like those who run orphanages) should be brought to justice - the problem with Michael Howard's well intentioned law changes was that others got caught in the net who should not have been, either accidentally or as a result of lazy or corrupt behaviour.

And I fear this is happening now - the damage to the teaching industry has been enormous; now the damage to the good side of religion (not something I am generally a fan of) is kicking in. I think direct compensation should be changed to fees for doctors and psychiatrists and media coverage severely curtailed.

But as for genuine victims - my point here is that, by giving them someone or something to blame, psychiatrists are avoiding doing what would be far more beneficial and honestly valuable - helping them get over the tiny trauma caused (which can seem huge if not dealt with correctly) and helping them move forward into positivity and success.

A lot of awful things happen to a lot of people. You're a victim if you let it affect you. You're the winner if you don't.

JK2006 wrote:


But as for genuine victims - my point here is that, by giving them someone or something to blame, psychiatrists are avoiding doing what would be far more beneficial and honestly valuable - helping them get over the tiny trauma caused (which can seem huge if not dealt with correctly) and helping them move forward into positivity and success.

A lot of awful things happen to a lot of people. You're a victim if you let it affect you. You're the winner if you don't.

What you say is true, JK.

But - and it is a big but-

I needed to work through the anger in order to be able to move on. The anger and blame is natural as you feel betrayed by people who should have protected you.

The Clinical Psychologist who treated me was excellent. She was the first therapist I had had who was interested in my childhood. We spent a lot of time trawling through my relationship with my mother before getting to a point where we could move on and leave the past behind. But I was very fortunate in having treatment with a very eminent psychologist. Many don't.

I totally agree with your last sentence. You are a victim if you let it affect you. But sometimes you need to be allowed to get that anger out of your system before you can move on.

Anyway, thank you JK for engaging with me on this issue- really appreciated.

Appropriate punishment for the guilty,without dragging in thousands of innocents,just to be sure the meejah doesn't turn on you,& make you look soft on crime.

Yes the offending priests should be punished,by due process of law,& those who covered should also receive due attention.However do not turn this into a witch hunt,blaming all & sundry for the crimes of others.
Often it's too late to get really reliable evidence,& we don't want to resort to 'trawling' the prisons & sewers for the kind of dodgy' evidence used at previous trials.

Keep this in context,learn any lessons available,but keep a level head.Remember for every true allegation there is at least another false one,& all these false ones also create victims.