www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1292119...shooting-victim.html

It is quite clear that this person has been pushed by the system too far. He has snapped and now only sees JUSTICE as revenge on those who have failed him.

I can see more people taking this route to JUSTICE for their lives if the current system is not reformed.

For too long POLICE - SOCIAL WORKERS and COURTS have destroyed peoples' lives with no regard to their feelings and in many cases the truth.

For some who are articulate or who have money - they can bounce back - even after a long prison sentence but for someone who is self employed or in a menial job then their whole future can be destroyed by a Prison Sentence as short as 8 weeks or so or even 4 weeks.

Therefore what they got to lose if they go on a rampage ? Nothing as far as I can see.

I dislike violence but surely we can all understand where Mr Moat is coming from ? surely we can understand his frustration at seeing his life destroyed bit by bit from behind bars in his prison cell.......so when he finally emerged all that was left was to hit out in pain against those he held responsible.

The man is not crazy - he is not illogical. He is doing the one thing that any sane person would do - he is getting JUSTICE for himself so that he feels better. He sees no point in living anymore when he has nothing. The system did not listen to him before - they are listening now and it is tragic that some innocent people are bound to be killed in this - and they are as much victims of the CORRUPT and BROKEN Justice system in the UK as Mr Moat himself.

This is a tragedy of the highest proportions. I only hope that the state can offer Mr Moat a deal to solve this before anyone else dies. If they kill him - then they will have destroyed so many lives.....

I think there is a lot in what BR says although that doesn't justify what has happened.

Government and authorities really are pushing people to the brink and with the increasing corporatization of our society something is going to give.

Many philosophers and watchers of society have been saying for years that there will be more and more Mr Moats. I believe they are correct.

The tragedy is that many innocents will suffer because of it whilst the T.Blairs of this world make another 2o Mill.

veritas wrote:
Government and authorities really are pushing people to the brink ...

Please explain what the government has done to make this man commit murder?

Locked Out wrote:
Stupidest and most insensitive posting of the day

Of the last five years probably.

BR's views have been a bit of a joke for a long time.

This sad one is not...and calls BR's sanity (or lack thereof) into question.

Murder - simply - is never justified.

In The Know wrote:
veritas wrote:
Government and authorities really are pushing people to the brink ...

Please explain what the government has done to make this man commit murder?
I didn't say government made him commit murder..I said governments and authority are increasingly pushing people to the brink and when that happens..something has to give.

This isn't a comment on that particular man's actions but society as a whole.

Surely you have seen that the nature of crime has changed dramatically over the past 20 to 30 years. I cannot recall ever hearing of guns or knives being used in Britain when I was young or before then except by professional crims.

These types of incidents will become more commonplace-just as there have been a rash of mass killings in the US in schools etc. There will be more and in more countries.

ie : A New Zealand economist Robert Moss was saying over 20 years ago that society will have to begin paying people a social wage and stop demonising the poor and unemployed as it does in a thousand ways.

When asked when that would happen he replied "when enough businessmen are hit over the head with a brick for their briefcases".

Needless to say the media claimed he was advocating for businessmen to be mugged when he was pointing out the obvious as a metaphor.

Once again we have people who are brainwashed by the system trying to say that because I understand Mr Moat I am advocating murder as a solution. I am not. I believe in peace and love and justice.

But I believe that JUSTICE is only fair when it applies both ways.

In our current society our Governments ( of all persuasions ) are following a medieval way of dealing with crime. Not only that they use it as a political weapon of fear.

Before Mr Moat went into prison he had never murdered anyone - and no one had ever feared him doing that. He has come out of prison to find his life ruined - everything taken - and he has sadly found someone to blame - the Police.

When someone goes into Prison who owns a house and has alot of money - when they come out that will still be waiting for them and they can pick up their life where they left off. In many cases Prison will actually relieve stress for many people of the daily grind - so it almost becomes a holiday experience for the mind. BUT for people who have little and are living on the brink - going into prison can undo their whole life and unravel it.

Mr Moat has become unravelled in the head because he has been put into a system that has destroyed him and the Police operate that system. Therefore he considers them fair game in his current "mad" state.

We need to reform our POLICE and COURTS and PRISONS urgently - or this will become a WEEKLY nightmare. Remember - the CUMBRIAN KILLER had similar grudges and was facing Prison for financial issues.

Bury your head if you want. But our government has KILLED millions in the last 10 years. Set an example - claimed that we will KILL for our OWN SECURITY - in fact for YOUR security. People like MOAT and the CUMBRIAN killer are just copycating the government.

The POLICE in addition have turned into a bullying force of robocops. Just watch back the video of the G20 last year and look how they treated INNOCENT people........eventually in society the oppressed say NO MORE and fight back to protect their lives.....

This is what is happening - I dont condone - I just explain.

We need to reform our POLICE (privatise them and start again ) our COURTS ( get rid of cases without HARD evidence - no more allegations based cases ) PRISONS ( only murderers should get prison terms and rapists )

Time for real change or CIVIL WAR will happen.

veritas wrote:

I didn't say government made him commit murder..I said governments and authority are increasingly pushing people to the brink and when that happens..something has to give.

This isn't a comment on that particular man's actions but society as a whole.

Surely you have seen that the nature of crime has changed dramatically over the past 20 to 30 years. I cannot recall ever hearing of guns or knives being used in Britain when I was young or before then except by professional crims.

These types of incidents will become more commonplace-just as there have been a rash of mass killings in the US in schools etc. There will be more and in more countries.

Agreed - but you seem to be arguing that these social misfits whould be given even more money, instead of being made to confort to the standards of a civilised society.

This is not "society's problem" - it's a problem with alot of criminal elements who will simple take and take (and make more and more excuses).

I've never been an advocate of capital punishment - but you have to admit, it IS a deterent ?

When these people finally realise that they have to conform to the accepted standards - and not keep bleating on about "their problems" - then we will be making progress.

BR wrote:
Once again we have people who are brainwashed by the system trying to say that because I understand Mr Moat I am advocating murder as a solution. I am not. I believe in peace and love and justice....

Here is your problem in a nutshell, BR. I'm sure you genuinely believe that anyone who doesn't share your views is "brainwashed by the system". And time after time you address that majority as if you know and they don't.

You're wrong to do so.
I'm not brainwashed. I don't believe that anyone at KoH is brainwashed. The very fact that someone posts here would suggest that they tend to think outside the box.
You should remember that I {who must surely be one of those you believe "brainwashed by the system"} hold the view that the invasion of Iraq was illegal, immoral and a waste of hundreds of thousands of lives - most of them
women and children.
Similarly I believe that the current campaign in Afghanistan is unwinable, was ill advised from Day One and has never had anything to do with the hunt for Bin Laden.
You may also recall that I have in the past called into question the very existence of "Al Q'aeda".
I believe that David Kelly was murdered by the SIS. You and I had an exchange of views on this - not because I fundamentally disagreed with your basic point, but because you presented your case so seriously badly that you needed telling. Introducing erroneous evidence as hard, definitely established and undeniable fact {citing, for instance, Norman Baker as a "government" source} is never a good idea. Had you not insisted on maintaining a dogmatically conspiracy theorist stance we might even have ended up agreeing.
I believe that Tony Blair was only ever motivated by personal ambition {and have so believed since the beginning of the 90s}.
And I believe that, for instance, the Bilderberg Group is something which should be held up to public scrutiny.
How does that litany of dissent qualify me as someone who has been brainwashed?

I constantly challenge your views and standpoints because quite often they are seriously flawed. Yet you continue to act as if you know some great secret that others don't. And that shows in posts like the one you just made.

If you address people as if they are idiots {as in "brainwashed by the system"} then you encourage them to look closely at your own words and claims. Which, quite often, don't entirely stack up. Treat others with a little more respect and you might just be surprised when you get a little back.

BR explains but does not justify, perhaps.

I am brainwashed by the system. I admit it. I would love to have totally free thought but since I was born I have been heavily conditioned by the ideas and education system of this country. My views are tainted and flavoured by the views of those who taught me.

Therefore, to say that we are not brainwashed is not true.

I have HEINZ baked beans - I love the taste and enjoyed the adverts.

I support a football team - though it is in a lower league.

I buy CDs and have regularly brought major label music.

I read newspapers and sites and the BBC news site - knowing the news is filtered and gives me a distorted picture of the World we live in.

I watch TV even though it reduces life to a series of 40 inches of pictures and is no rival for proper living and going out and experiencing company.

I vote in an election which rarely reflects any beliefs that I have.

I accept that we wage war and kill millions based on our taxes - though I dont agree with war. A contradiction.

I disagree with violence yet our police carry guns more often than not in London.

Life is not black and white - contradictions appear in all our lives - therefore when I write about something it is not from view that is set in stone - that is what is called DOGMA. Therefore, like any researcher my viewpoint changes as the evidence appears. So I voted for BLAIR in 1997 but now consider him to be a War Criminal and flawed person.

I appreciate your posts Locked Out because you analyse what I say and you do point out any drawbacks in my writing. But I admit I have been brainwashed and that my views often change and sometime change backwards and forwards whilst I try to make up my mind. I dont just stick to one view because it is fashionable and acceptable.

Mr Moat is fighting back against the system. The POLICE STATE have taken 4 days so far and they still dont have him under their control. He is showing that if a large number of people decided to "Rebel" then the POLICE STATE would have no chance against a larger group of people who wished to stand up against the POLICE STATE. Worth considering. Terrorism is wrong - but civil disobedience always works - ask GHANDI - Martin Luther King - Glasnost - Solidarity etc.

In The Know wrote:
veritas wrote:

I didn't say government made him commit murder..I said governments and authority are increasingly pushing people to the brink and when that happens..something has to give.

This isn't a comment on that particular man's actions but society as a whole.

Surely you have seen that the nature of crime has changed dramatically over the past 20 to 30 years. I cannot recall ever hearing of guns or knives being used in Britain when I was young or before then except by professional crims.

These types of incidents will become more commonplace-just as there have been a rash of mass killings in the US in schools etc. There will be more and in more countries.

Agreed - but you seem to be arguing that these social misfits whould be given even more money, instead of being made to confort to the standards of a civilised society.

This is not "society's problem" - it's a problem with alot of criminal elements who will simple take and take (and make more and more excuses).

I've never been an advocate of capital punishment - but you have to admit, it IS a deterent ?

When these people finally realise that they have to conform to the accepted standards - and not keep bleating on about "their problems" - then we will be making progress.

I thought all studies showed capital punishment made no difference.

Aren't all societies problems everyone's problems ? I reckon we have been actively creating misfits by the tens of thousands. And Mr Moat is a ghastly example.

I think it's a bit rich for anyone who believes in an omnipotent deity (and regularly points to a 2000 year old book to back up their arguments), to accuse anyone else of of being brainwashed.

BR, I suggest you watch the first 10 minutes of Zeitgeist.

I expect it would leave you felling rather...

Sensible reply from Perhaps - explains but does not justify.
I have some sympathies for the overall implications of this thread; nothing can justify murder except, perhaps, self protection or protection of others where killing is the only option (for example - Hitler).
But I do think the wider consideration being discussed here is that society is getting it badly wrong and sometimes is provoking tragedies rather than preventing them.

I dont base my belief in God on what "man" has written about him - I base it on a personal experience of God and his creation. More powerful than any book or brainwashing.

Man made religions all have one problem - they have been created by man. Christianity was created years after Jesus lived - in fact the Christianity we know in the World is actually more to do with Paul's teachings than Jesus. The Old Testament advocates violence as well - which means that it is probably more a historical record in many parts than divine instructions

So which part of belief have I been brainwashed into - I would like to know ?

I would actually say that the current secularism is in fact the brainwashing - because it ignores crucial evidence for a Creator God - which science is discovering all the time.

BR said: I would actually say that the current secularism is in fact the brainwashing - because it ignores crucial evidence for a Creator God - which science is discovering all the time.

OK then, which crucial scientific evidence for the existence of a Creator God have I missed?

BR said: I dont base my belief in God on what "man" has written about him - I base it on a personal experience of God and his creation.

Sorry BR, forgot to ask you if you've seen this program. God on the Brain.

www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/godonbrain.shtml

Fascinating stuff. It uses science to show that many people who claim to have personal experience of God, actually suffer from abnormal brain activity in the temporal lobe.

JK2006 wrote:
But I do think the wider consideration being discussed here is that society is getting it badly wrong and sometimes is provoking tragedies rather than preventing them.

Beg to differ, JK

What are these problems which "society" is causing?

Its all about people taking some responsibility for their lives - and not simply "passing the buck" and blaming someone / something else when all goes wrong.

We mollycoddle people far too much these days - so much that they are either incapable of doing anything for themselves, or (more often) simply refuse to do anything because they know someone else will sort out (and pay for) their problems.

This is a downward spiral - and its long overdue that we put a tsop to it.

Yes we "molly coddle" (lovely phrase - where did it originate? Questions and Answers) some. And the "victim culture" encourages some. And many with a grudge are themselves responsible for causing it. But likewise by the simplistic, black and white, extreme methodology of answering problems we create more than we solve.

JK - I suggest you read ANTNONY PEAKE's books and website about TEMPORAL LOBE issues. He has done deep research into this and come up with some incredible findings. He is also live on Radio Merseyside and lectures in this field.

The science you mention actually has been taken out of context. This is an area which I know very well and spend alot of time reading about the Temporal Lobe issues and Quantum Physics research because as you all know my own personal interests are in time travel and parallel / multiverse theories such as those of relativity which have produced such work by Einstein - Everett - Hawkins and so on.

GOD and experiencing GOD's work is not just a feeling as some non believers would like to have people believe ( in fact the science article you refer to is in fact a classic case of trying to disprove God from the point of view of people's own experience )

Consciousness is something that many scientists struggle with - not least about where it is based and how it forms. To just describe the human brain as a computer is missing the point completely. Emotional responses make us different from many other species and make us very special. Our ability to just discuss the meaning of life is unique as far as I can see as well.

I do believe we are in some sort of "illusory" World - I do believe that God is in control of the situation - and I do believe that God has left his Holy Spirit or Daemon to help each of us who choose to listen to his voice. We are children of God - we are hardwired into the God consciousness or Universe ( if you are New Ager ) hence we all have limitless abilities to create and to love and be special. Every single one of us is very special - and we are being LIED to by the POWERS THAT BE who try and dumb us down and try and make us negative about life. They use a FEAR AGENDA to frighten us into submission - fear of losing our job - fear of lack of status - fear of others - fear of war - fear of theft - fear of Global Warming ( the list is endless because they are always thinking up new ways to frighten us - Swine flu classic example )

Terrorism is not real - it hardly exists - neither did Swine Flu .....Global Warming if it exists is intentional from the Multi Nationals who create it ( Not us ) and it is not to do with Carbon.

We are LIED to and brainwashed every day into accepting this world as it is - full of WAR and HATE and Sexual Exploitation and Torture ( and that is just the UK government ) - in other places it is worse. There is ENOUGH FOOD to go around but we GORGE and get OBESE whilst in some countries kids are dying today for lack of any food at all.

Our world has been corrupted by those who wish us not to find GOD and find what our purpose in life actually is.

I have no religion to sell - no book to promote - I have not got a hit list of converts I want to make. I just have realised the truth about what is going on - and it hurts me deeply to see wonderful people around the World in a state of slavery.

We all have GOD's DNA in us - the God Particle - whatever you want to call it. Dig deep into yourself - go and sit on a hill if you have to - listen to some beautiful music - and find what is true. Then you will never look back and you will see what is around you for what it is.

Anthony Peake books are available on Amazon. He is not a christian ? as far as I know.