Innocent Accused wrote:
Some people rose up,and a lot of others fought to stop them taking over.

... and your evidence is ????

I have seen NO evidence whatsoever that anyone supported Gaddafi (and neither have you).

The rebels, who were very lightly armed were fighting a huge repression machine.

I have seen evidence of huge celebrations where he and his army have been outed, and I've also seen evidence (and heard witness reports) from those who went into his torture chambers.

I've seen the piles of bodies (next to son Khamis's training academy)

I believe the NTC (and so does the UN and Human Rights Watch) when they say that 20,000 "went missing" and cannot be accounted for.

Where is your evidence ???[/quote]

david wrote:
So this is not just about trading with the rebels. It's about cronyism at best, or corruption at worst. Alan Duncan and the Tories lining the pockets of their friends in Vitol. The fact that they were the only oil company invited is outrageous and needs to be investigated.

Sounds like a Halliburton situation ! Is Dodgy Dick involved ?

Are the Libyans asking for an investigation? No? Then surely they are happey with the current arrangement?

The evidence is that it's taken 7 months (so far) to win with the whole world on the "rebels" side against your "machine" (made up of loads of PEOPLE).
And thousands of Gaddafi supporters cheering for him.
And still many pockets of pro Gaddafi support.

WHY they support him is neither here nor there. They are human beings, they DO and HAVE supported him. "Oh they were threatened" and "Oh they were paid" may be true but doesn't stop them being human beings many of whom are dead as a result of the war.

JK2006 wrote:
The evidence is that it's taken 7 months (so far) to win with the whole world on the "rebels" side against your "machine" (made up of loads of PEOPLE).
And thousands of Gaddafi supporters cheering for him.
And still many pockets of pro Gaddafi support.

WHY they support him is neither here nor there. They are human beings, they DO and HAVE supported him. "Oh they were threatened" and "Oh they were paid" may be true but doesn't stop them being human beings many of whom are dead as a result of the war.

Here is the evidence so far of Gaddafi's handiwork ....

Gaddafi's mass killing sites - www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14729083

WHERE is the evidence of your claim that "thousands of Gaddafi supporters cheering for him" ?

2000 dead (so far) in Syria - all because they demand freedom.

In The Know wrote:
david wrote:
So this is not just about trading with the rebels. It's about cronyism at best, or corruption at worst. Alan Duncan and the Tories lining the pockets of their friends in Vitol. The fact that they were the only oil company invited is outrageous and needs to be investigated.

Sounds like a Halliburton situation ! Is Dodgy Dick involved ?

Are the Libyans asking for an investigation? No? Then surely they are happey with the current arrangement?

It doesn't matter whether the Libyans are asking for an investigation. It's here that we need an investigation as to whether due process was followed and what went on in the government's secretive 'oil cell'. If you can't see that the fact that the only company invited to trade with the rebels was one closely linked to the Tories and Alan Duncan (who is in the Oil Cell himself)is very dodgy to say the least, well I don't know what else to say.

From the Guardian:

It (The Oil Cell) is said to have played a discreet but crucial role in the campaign in Libya by helping to enforce the sanctions regime to prevent Gaddafi importing and exporting oil while allowing oil to reach the rebels in the east. That oil came via one company, Vitol.

Duncan, a former oil trader and multi-millionaire, has had a 30-year friendship with the managing director of Vitol, Ian Taylor, at one point operating as a consultant to the company and as a non-executive director to a subsidiary firm. Taylor has also been a Tory donor, declared on Duncan's parliamentary register of interests.

Civil servants in the Foreign Office are known to have expressed deep concerns about the existence of the cell, warning that it appeared to be encroaching too far on commercial purposes. One person with knowledge of the Whitehall machinations described their mood as "mutinous".'

We all accept Gaddifi behaved badly. Our evidence of the cheering thousands is equally BBC footage and reports from Libya at the time - grudging, like you, about WHY they are waving green flags and pictures of him, but there for all to see. But I can't be bothered to find links - if you really didn't see any of it, you're quite entitled to believe they didn't exist.

In The Know wrote:
... although I understand that you may disregard anything that doesnt suit YOUR case!...

The pot is calling the kettle black here, methinks. A truly towering example of the sophist's craft.

Locked Out wrote:
In The Know wrote:
... although I understand that you may disregard anything that doesnt suit YOUR case!...

The pot is calling the kettle black here, methinks. A truly towering example of the sophist's craft.

Still not seen any evidence she is related to an ancient lineage of plantpots
Also not seen any evidence she can be bothered to register and sign in.How convieniant that her posts can't be looked up as a result.

I don't believe he is related to the Planpots-basically we wouldn't have him.

perhaps he's an offspring from one of the distant branches that comprised of some from a lunatic asylum and others who were hanged for dreadful crimes.

Of course he could just be the illegitimate child of a servant who we would never aknowledge.

ps-I haven't registered but I go quite insane joining boards these days...too much like hard work.

david wrote:
It doesn't matter whether the Libyans are asking for an investigation. It's here that we need an investigation as to whether due process was followed and what went on in the government's secretive 'oil cell'. If you can't see that the fact that the only company invited to trade with the rebels was one closely linked to the Tories and Alan Duncan (who is in the Oil Cell himself)is very dodgy to say the least, well I don't know what else to say.

but David ... when asked if we wants some oil, are we supposed to say "No" ? Why don't you tender it elsewhere first ?

I'm sure the deal will be in our best interests - and is a "thank you" for the aid we gave in toppling a dictator and freeing the people.

Locked Out wrote:
Dodging the point that was being made. As usual. No, hang on. Dodging would indicate a move made with some kind of skill. I meant avoiding the point. .

What has this discussion (with David) got to do with you ?

In The Know wrote:
david wrote:
It doesn't matter whether the Libyans are asking for an investigation. It's here that we need an investigation as to whether due process was followed and what went on in the government's secretive 'oil cell'. If you can't see that the fact that the only company invited to trade with the rebels was one closely linked to the Tories and Alan Duncan (who is in the Oil Cell himself)is very dodgy to say the least, well I don't know what else to say.

but David ... when asked if we wants some oil, are we supposed to say "No" ? Why don't you tender it elsewhere first ?

I'm sure the deal will be in our best interests - and is a "thank you" for the aid we gave in toppling a dictator and freeing the people.

Wrong end of the stick again. We weren't asked if we wanted oil This was a British government initiative taken in secret to supply oil to the rebels and then enable them to trade. The British government gave that deal to Vitol without considering any other companies. That's what's dodgy.

Us supplying oil to the rebels, how is that the rebels thanking us?

I just don't get your comments, I don't think you've read the 2 articles I posted links to on that other thread, otherwise you wouldn't have such a strange view of what happened.

In The Know wrote:
Locked Out wrote:
Dodging the point that was being made. As usual. No, hang on. Dodging would indicate a move made with some kind of skill. I meant avoiding the point. .

What has this discussion (with David) got to do with you ?

It's a public discussion, ITK. So anyone can chip in. That is the point of message boards. Otherwise we might as well just ask for each other's emails- or get a room.

In The Know wrote:
Locked Out wrote:
Dodging the point that was being made. As usual. No, hang on. Dodging would indicate a move made with some kind of skill. I meant avoiding the point. .

What has this discussion (with David) got to do with you ?

Denial is better than reasoned argument now?

In The Know wrote:
JK2006 wrote:
The evidence is that it's taken 7 months (so far) to win with the whole world on the "rebels" side against your "machine" (made up of loads of PEOPLE).
And thousands of Gaddafi supporters cheering for him.
And still many pockets of pro Gaddafi support.

WHY they support him is neither here nor there. They are human beings, they DO and HAVE supported him. "Oh they were threatened" and "Oh they were paid" may be true but doesn't stop them being human beings many of whom are dead as a result of the war.

Here is the evidence so far of Gaddafi's handiwork ....

Gaddafi's mass killing sites - www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14729083

WHERE is the evidence of your claim that "thousands of Gaddafi supporters cheering for him" ?

2000 dead (so far) in Syria - all because they demand freedom.

I wouldn't dispute many have died but by who's hands ?

As for celebrations..what about those who stayed home ..a cheering crowd is no evidence of the great majority.

Remember the cheering 'crowds' spntanously pulling down Saddam's statue ?. A totally manufactured event with a bunch of thugs but it worked.

veritas wrote:
I wouldn't dispute many have died but by who's hands ?

Eeer, let me guess.
Thousands killed (and 20000 missing) BEFORE the rebels arrived in Tripoli ... now let's see ... who could it be ???

If Gaddafi hadn't been stopped the death toll could have been ten times higher - and ongoing

In The Know wrote:
Eeer, let me guess.
Thousands killed (and 20000 missing) BEFORE the rebels arrived in Tripoli ... now let's see ... who could it be ???

I think I've found a clue, veritas !

==

(Reuters) - Libya's Muammar Gaddafi deployed special squads which held suspected opponents in shipping containers, tortured them for information about insurgent networks and disposed of their bodies in unmarked graves in a campaign to smash the revolt against his rule.

Evidence gathered by Reuters in the provincial town of Khoms shows an organised system of repression with methods including delivering electric shocks to suspects' genitals, keeping them for weeks in baking heat with only a few sips of water a day, and whipping them with an electrical cable while their hands were bound with plastic ties.

uk.reuters.com/article/2011/09/06/uk-lib...dUKTRE7854MJ20110906

Fair enough ITK as long as you are saying that all the dead are Gaddafi victims and none are rebel victims or Nato victims.
If that's NOT what you're saying, I fail to see the relevance. Or am I missing something?

I have no doubts Gaddafi was as big a monster as some of the 'rebels' may be.

I just hope everything works out for the Libyan people ..guess we will have to wait and see.

Sure he probably had torturers but so do we...here is a guy that appeared on the Aussie X Factor last week and had everyone..absolutely everyone in tears.

He and his brother were found as babies in a shoe box in a park after the first Gulf War..terribly deformed..apparently victims of depleted uranium weapons that the US still claims it never used.

He sings a credible version of Imagine..a lovely performance..very sobering.