To get some information / background for this discussion, watch the clips Adam Curtis has posted about the history of the Hayek's ideas, the believe in "free markets", in Britain.

www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/2011/09/the_curse_of_tina.html

"The League Of Gentlemen then showed how in reality this [the "scientific" theory of Monetarism
] led to a disaster - mass unemployment and the closing of great swathes of British manufacturing.

As the film shows, the theory of monetarism was then ruthlessly discarded - and there is a wonderful bit of Mrs Thatcher being interviewed in 1985 when she completely denies that she ever believed in it.

But that didn't mean that Mrs Thatcher was going to give up on Hayek's vision. Most of British industry might have disappeared - but she believed that the free market utopia could still be created, this time by the banks and financial world .

Faced by the disastrous collapse of manufacturing some of the economists who had been the true believers in the Hayek revolution began to have their doubts. At the end of the film, Sir Alan Budd who was one of the chief architects of Thatcher's policies gave an extraordinarily honest - and revealing interview.

He says that he worried that he and his ideas had been ruthlessly used. That what he calls the "capitalist class" had simply seen in the ideas a way to engineer a crisis of capitalism that led to mass unemployment.

As a result of that unemployment unions were smashed, wages forced down - and the capitalist class managed to make high profits again.

And instead of giving the workers higher wages - the bankers lent them money. Simple really."

From a music industry perspective the most interesting bits are about Oliver Smedley, who invested in pirate radio to destroy the "monopoly" of the BBC and Reg Calvert:

"Major Oliver Smedley didn't like this competition - so he did what all good free-marketeers do. He created a monopoly.

He went to Reg and persuaded him to amalgamate with Radio Caroline - and become part of the pirate network. In return Smedley promised to give Reg a brand new transmitter - which would be much more powerful."

There is also a great documentary about Screaming Lord Sutch, including a few seconds of Joe Meek.

TED wrote:
Do loans count? I got a loan before for college but I only went to a community college so it wasn't that much and I was able to pay it all back. But yeah, I only use debit cards too. Some people though only think of the present. They don't like to think about the consequences of their actions. They block it all out and just do whatever. They think they'll find a way out of everything.

We said, Ted.
As I mentioned to Angel - sometimes we have to think on behalf of others, and prevent them from digging themselves into a hole.

veritas wrote:
What the credit providers never tell you is the ginormous amount of 'debt' through fraud and non-payments they write off every year.

My nephew in the UK runs a debt collection company..he says you would be shocked at the amount of debt written off every year...which means profit on debt is staggering.

ps : he tells me the current cut-off point for a credit provider to chase non paid debt is now 5000 pounds (unless you are a homeowner). That means if you run up 4999 quid on credit cards and don't pay, it's unlikely they will pursue you to court.

All of which has to be paid for by those who act responsibly. Its never "written-off" veritas ... its merely added to the costs which the rest of us pay.

Another reason for controlling the under-class even more.

veritas wrote:
Margaret Thatcher is the one who set about destroying British manufacturing with addmittedly Nu Labour joining in

whatever happened to Red Ken - the Union leader who single-handedly managed to destroy British Leyland ?

Where is Arthur Scargill for that matter ?

"the rest are surplus to requirements." God only knows what you mean by that.

It means quite simply that society does not need them. They are surplus to requirements - they have no talent, no skills and nothing that will ever benefit society. They will always be a drain of society (as in their wasted education for a start).

You may think we should subsidise these spongers - I dont.

In The Know wrote:
veritas wrote:
Margaret Thatcher is the one who set about destroying British manufacturing with addmittedly Nu Labour joining in

whatever happened to Red Ken - the Union leader who single-handedly managed to destroy British Leyland ?

Where is Arthur Scargill for that matter ?

"the rest are surplus to requirements." God only knows what you mean by that.

It means quite simply that society does not need them. They are surplus to requirements - they have no talent, no skills and nothing that will ever benefit society. They will always be a drain of society (as in their wasted education for a start).

You may think we should subsidise these spongers - I dont.

"act responsibly"...like the bankers..you know the ones who control credit and just created the greatest global melt-down in history ??

what do you think we should do with all those spongers ?

I think you might be a lower middle class reactionary Tory.

you don't seem to understand the very basics of economics.

Maybe you're Alf Garnet.

veritas wrote:
what do you think we should do with all those spongers ?

I think we should make the Labour Party (who have encouraged them) pay for them .... we'll see if you are still so keen then ?

In The Know wrote:
veritas wrote:
Margaret Thatcher is the one who set about destroying British manufacturing with addmittedly Nu Labour joining in

whatever happened to Red Ken - the Union leader who single-handedly managed to destroy British Leyland ?

If I remember correctly another far more knowledgeable poster pulled you up on this,and being the village idiot you still haven't learnt from it.
The man was known as 'Red Robbo'

In The Know wrote:
veritas wrote:
what do you think we should do with all those spongers ?

I think we should make the Labour Party (who have encouraged them) pay for them .... we'll see if you are still so keen then ?

Actually most of the long term unemployment started with Maggie in the early 80s,Labour actually managed to reduce it until the worldwide credit crunch arrived.

In The Know wrote:
veritas wrote:
what do you think we should do with all those spongers ?

I think we should make the Labour Party (who have encouraged them) pay for them .... we'll see if you are still so keen then ?

as long as someone pays them..take away the spending power of a few million and the economy would collapse.

your thinking does have lots of fellow believers especially in the USA which is haading the way you would probably like.

And that's why 2 billionaires..Soros on the left and Buffett on the right are saying capitalism is in danger of collapse.

I actually think a complete collapse of the system is needed. We're always discussing ways about how to fix the current system but what if the system can't be fixed? What if it is inherently flawed?

Intheknow doesn't think it's a flaw in the system, but rather a flaw in human nature. That some people are just born defective and that capitalism naturally sorts it all out. Correct me if I'm wrong Intheknow, but that seems to be what you think.

But people and the environment share a very close, mutual relationship. And you can't look at one without looking at the other.

TED wrote:
I actually think a complete collapse of the system is needed. We're always discussing ways about how to fix the current system but what if the system can't be fixed? What if it is inherently flawed?

Intheknow doesn't think it's a flaw in the system, but rather a flaw in human nature. That some people are just born defective and that capitalism naturally sorts it all out. Correct me if I'm wrong Intheknow, but that seems to be what you think.

But people and the environment share a very close, mutual relationship. And you can't look at one without looking at the other.

I think total collapse is inevitable..we are using resourses at an alarming rate, polluting the earth and producing more and more disposable stuff that is polluting the seas..killing off fish and so on.

I don't know the solution...but then I won;lt be around that long so it will become In The Knows problem.

The peasants, Polish gypsies and so on will most likely BBQ him and eat him when their dole is stopped.