Before any verdict may I say I know virtually nothing about this case, other than I've read or seen in the media. But I remember the era, knew the attitudes and morality, have experienced numerous cases of false allegations and, most important, have common sense.

I'm pretty sure Ghislaine, having been Epstein's girlfriend, assisted him in obtaining contacts with numerous young ladies. Why not? Likewise I'm pretty sure those ladies were flattered and very willing to accept luxury trips and gifts. I'm equally certain none did anything without their full consent (Epstein was intelligent and would never have risked it - likewise he would never have been so foolish as to do anything with anyone under age in whichever territory). I'm pretty sure that the accusers have inflated, exaggerated or added to the reality of what happened to them. In most cases, from what I've read, in order to make huge sums of money. Well aware that the only witness to their stories is dead.

So I reckon Ghislaine should be acquitted on all charges. But as I say, I know nothing.

Not one seemed capable of walking out the door.

The one accusing Andrew is horrendous and I don't know the truth but I stand by my claim the Royal men did not dally with common tarts when they had the choice of Sloane Rangers and Upper Class Gels throwing themselves at them..in fact I know one who had an on /off dalliance with a future King every time he was in Australia and she would never dream of spilling the beans (nor would her compliant husband..could be why he got a Knighthood ).

whatever the outcome, Maxwell has been treated appallingly so far.

I don't know about the LAW in America but surely telling a jury to hurry up as there's Covid about guarantees a hurried verdict for a complex trial and should mean the trial collapses?

I'm sorry but like so many Court Cases these days - around the world - look at Hong Kong - look at Iran - look at Russia - the old system of Justice has broken. Media power has totally dominated. And only media with a simplistic, populist agenda. "She's a witch; burn (or drown) her" springs to mind. Humanity has hardly changed at all in several thousand years. "Feed the Christians to the lions" becomes "Feed the jews to the gas chambers" becomes "Feed the sex offenders to the Guillotine".

There's a five-part ABC documentary on YouTube "Truth & Lies: Jeffrey Epstein" and the three women interviewed in it seem genuine to me. They describe low-level abuse and being recruited by schoolmates. Ghislaine Maxwell isn't mentioned. She isn't mentioned in this accompanying article either.

"[Epstein] really just had middle schoolers and high schoolers all over Palm Beach running around and trying to recruit for him, trying to recruit other little kids," said Brad Edwards, a victims' rights lawyer who has represented several Epstein accusers over the past 11 years.

abcnews.go.com/US/jeffrey-epstein-surviv...ch/story?id=68099808
But I wouldn't be surprised if the verdict is the same as in Rolf Harris's first trial: unanimously guilty on all counts. The jury in that case were also out for a long time, over two weekends. Just before the second weekend they had questions for the judge suggesting that they were split or confused, but then produced a unanimous verdict on the Monday. I wondered if something untoward had happened to hurry them up that second weekend, e.g. if one or more of them had discussed it with someone not on the jury or had gone online.

I'm with you JO and just like Rolf - I suspect she'll be found guilty. Like Savile now, after death. Humanity has become so totally absolutely simplified and superficial - and who cares (except relatives and loved ones)? Very few - even those wrongly convicted, jailed for years, just want to get on with the few remaining years and forget about it. As one inmate once said to me "Life's not fair". Sometimes I feel very alone. But I quite like it that way; makes it more challenging.

And after all the media coverage, how different could the verdicts have been? Surprised it was only 5 out of 6 Guiltys.

The BBC don't even care what they look like any more.
They have actually interviewed Alan Dershowitz, who is also accused by Virginia Roberts, about the verdict.

so the verdict is in and the media steams in with the usual claptrap..

we know they had 2 sets of articles already written ready to publish..

1. Guilty: Evil women who aided the perverted Epstein and
2. Innocent: Wronged woman blinded by devotion to a monster.

Of course there will be appeals and so on..dragged on for years.

Maxwell has still been treated shockingly both by the media and in the manner she was jailed for over a year whilst still innocent.

There is absolutely no way the daily flood of prejudicial articles could not seep into whatever brain eventually ended up on a jury.

US supposed ideals..such as the so-called "freedom of speech" is used to decimate and destroy.

JK is correct..the media demands blood and gets it.

Those accused of being a Witch would easily be dragged to a bonfire these days. Lynching could easily be common.

People are no less savage than they have been for 1000s of years and society always needs an enemy.

## one of the oddest things in recent years has been the mis-use of the word "pedophile"to describe teenagers as "children".

## I think it actually lessens the gravity of a crime against a child. Especially as society (and the media) increasingly demand adult behavior from real children at younger and younger ages.

I've asked lawyers and even a couple of cops..does someone who might dally with say a legal aged person in certain European countries become a pedo if they dally with someone the same age but legally underage in another country (and visa versa).

Not one including me can provide an answer to this conundrum!

You see the problem is - I'm sure she busily and happily organised and found attractive young girls to meet Epstein and others. Nothing wrong with that. I'm equally certain nothing ever happened when the girls were under age nor without their full, willing and delighted consent. For that she'll probably spend the rest of her life in prison. The majority of our species will be very happy to see someone suffer. We've become an increasingly nasty race and also increasingly stupid.

There was electronic evidence and internet evidence to convict Ghislaine Maxwell. This wasn't just She said, she said. Ghislaine was very much her father's daughter. manipulative, Corrupt, power-hungry, and abusing people was her modus operandus, according to a new Sky documentary "Ghislaine Maxwell - In Epstein's shadow", with testimonies from former friends, colleagues, and people she went to University with

hedda wrote:


I've asked lawyers and even a couple of cops..does someone who might dally with say a legal aged person in certain European countries become a pedo if they dally with someone the same age but legally underage in another country (and visa versa).

Not one including me can provide an answer to this conundrum!

That's because the "conundrum" is deliberately manufactured and conflates pedophilia with underage sex. Though of course the media purposely conflate the two as well for sensationalism.

Pedophilia is sexual attraction to pre-pubescent children; not pubescent teenagers (which isn't, unlike the former, a psychiatric condition). However, due to the latter group still having a lot of growing up to do psychologically countries protect them from sexual exploitation from adults. Of course the precise legal cut off age will vary. As do traffic laws between nations. This in itself is not descriptive of anything.

It is for the adult to be aware of the cut off; and act responsibly. Though I do have sympathy for those men who have been caught out by the hypocritical and inconsistent laws relating to gay sex. Including a friend of mine who spent a few months inside decades ago for a perfectly consensual act; that if he had committed with a female then would not have been illegal.

As for Maxwell who knows. No one here does; I don't. I do think that the sentence is inhumane in its length though; especially given what we do know about the "facts" at the "worse end" of what may have transpired; and a Court has been satisfied did.

There is electronic evidence and internet evidence, this is not just she said, she said. Why didn't the girls just walk out the door, possibly because Epstein was very rich and powerful, he could destroy people's lives if he wanted to. In the new documentary on Sky "Ghislaine Maxwell - Epstein's shadow". There are allegations that she was involved in abusing one of the girls herself with Epstein. Also, there are other suggestions that Maxwell would procure girls to perform massages and Epstein would turn it around into forced sex, seemingly without Ghislaine's knowledge. I'm pretty sure that there has been wrongdoing here, but decades in prison, for been an accessory does seem draconion.

JK2006 wrote:

I'm pretty sure Ghislaine, having been Epstein's girlfriend, assisted him in obtaining contacts with numerous young ladies. Why not? Likewise I'm pretty sure those ladies were flattered and very willing to accept luxury trips and gifts. I'm equally certain none did anything without their full consent (Epstein was intelligent and would never have risked it - likewise he would never have been so foolish as to do anything with anyone under age in whichever territory).


I agree that in all probability your assumptions about the girls being willing and eager etc are likely to be correct but not with your strong belief that Epstein and Maxwell didn’t know the girls were underage.

Very rich and very powerful people will often push, bend and ultimately break laws as they use their power and money to do it in a way they believe will avoid them every being caught or prosecuted. This is a general statement and majority of times the law being broken has nothing to do with sex. The law breaking can be a tax evasion, bribery, stock exchange manipulation etc etc etc but very rich and very powerful people will cross the line between legal and illegal without feeling guilty. If a very rich/powerful man has a strong desire for very young girls I don’t think it unreasonable to believe that some will ignore a law when seeking such pleasure. Often the sort of person doing this will also be taking illegal drugs and there will be multiple laws being broken. Some drugs such as cocaine are not only illegal but have a strong correlation with riskier sexual practices, overconfidence, and trait impulsivity which will contribute to bad decision making.

Like you I don’t know any details of the case other than those reported so both Maxwell and Epstein may have been completely innocent but I do think you are wrong to say that “he would never have been so foolish as to do anything with anyone under age”

Speaking in general, not about this case, the reason why youngsters are often perfectly willing and don't leave when they can is because they are youngsters, and make lousy decisions all the time.

The underage laws are to protect them from themselves as much as from others.

That, Honey, makes sense on a superficial level. The truth is, however, individuals have different abilities and flaws. Some young people are well able to make up their minds; many old people will NEVER learn how to make the right decision. Generalisation helps nobody. For some, prostitution is entirely sensible - those to whom sex means little and is unimportant but food, clothes, comfort, family means a lot, for example. I reckon those 4 girls who decided they would like luxury gifts and lots of cash made exactly the correct decision at the time just as, clearly, they also made the right decision to exaggerate and lie a little in order to make fortunes now Ghislaine has been convicted.

Honey wrote:
Speaking in general, not about this case, the reason why youngsters are often perfectly willing and don't leave when they can is because they are youngsters, and make lousy decisions all the time.

The underage laws are to protect them from themselves as much as from others.

makes sense but they weren't "youngsters". They were late teens and one was considered underage in NY law.

Teenagers make terrible decisions of course but that's part of growing up. The fearlessness of youth is how old men (and women) can convince them to go off to war and kill strangers.

Each alleged victim could have walked out the door. The money of course was highly attractive as the Andrew accuser says she walked away with $1000s for each encounter.

Of course the rich use wealth for their own power but what was the choice here: they could have perhaps gone to work in America's fast food industry or Walmart for poverty wages whilst the owners travel in their own luxury jets and Super Yachts.

## Get a gander at the Walton's mega yacht ..all bought by exploiting their own country's citizens and Chinese slave labour. But lauded for doing so.

Epstein and Maxwell's alleged victims have put in claims for $Millions..no dead end jobs for them.

Again: Maxwell (by proxy with Epstein dead) is America's Jimmy Savile in that no other viewpoint will be tolerated.

Witness the attacks upon a Maxwell family member for daring to say his sister is innocent, and the BBC's ridiculous hand-wringing over interviewing a lawyer who was Epstein's lawyer and the media's idiotic condemnation of them.

The all prevailing "think of the victims" mantra resonates as a million people (who wouldn't know them from Adam) wring their hands in faux concern.

## again I think back to Germaine Greer's description of her vicious rape and beating as a late teen and how she recovered & went on to success and how she abhors the media campaign to tell true victims & all future victims : your life has now been destroyed, it's over.No recovery possible

Maxwell is now not only being punished for Epstein's alleged crimes (and still 1000s of morons rabbit away on social media about the "blackmail campaigns" despite not even the FBI making any such claim)...she is being punished in the media for Robert Maxwell's crimes.

What next: when Maxwell's lawyers inevitably hold a press conference to announce they are formerly filing an appeal will there be a self imposed media boycott with small media outlets terrified to report it?

Think of all the terrible cases in the UK (and USA) of people wrongly jailed for murder and rape and who had convictions overturned after endless campaigns by supporters and lawyers.

The Maxwell conviction is now unique : no alternative view will be tolerated..any relative or supported must be silenced under threat of decimation in the media and any outlet that publishes them will be attacked.
.
She has become the USA's Jimmy Savile: not only will no alternative belief or view be tolerated..those who expound one will be the "fags" loaded at the base of the Witch's bonfire.

Nothing about this case makes sense to me, literally nothing.

hedda wrote:
Honey wrote:
Speaking in general, not about this case, the reason why youngsters are often perfectly willing and don't leave when they can is because they are youngsters, and make lousy decisions all the time.

The underage laws are to protect them from themselves as much as from others.

makes sense but they weren't "youngsters". They were late teens and one was considered underage in NY law.

Teenagers make terrible decisions of course but that's part of growing up. The fearlessness of youth is how old men (and women) can convince them to go off to war and kill strangers.

Each alleged victim could have walked out the door. The money of course was highly attractive as the Andrew accuser says she walked away with $1000s for each encounter.

Of course the rich use wealth for their own power but what was the choice here: they could have perhaps gone to work in America's fast food industry or Walmart for poverty wages whilst the owners travel in their own luxury jets and Super Yachts.

## Get a gander at the Walton's mega yacht ..all bought by exploiting their own country's citizens and Chinese slave labour. But lauded for doing so.

Epstein and Maxwell's alleged victims have put in claims for $Millions..no dead end jobs for them.

Again: Maxwell (by proxy with Epstein dead) is America's Jimmy Savile in that no other viewpoint will be tolerated.

Witness the attacks upon a Maxwell family member for daring to say his sister is innocent, and the BBC's ridiculous hand-wringing over interviewing a lawyer who was Epstein's lawyer and the media's idiotic condemnation of them.

The all prevailing "think of the victims" mantra resonates as a million people (who wouldn't know them from Adam) wring their hands in faux concern.

## again I think back to Germaine Greer's description of her vicious rape and beating as a late teen and how she recovered & went on to success and how she abhors the media campaign to tell true victims & all future victims : your life has now been destroyed, it's over.No recovery possible

Maxwell is now not only being punished for Epstein's alleged crimes (and still 1000s of morons rabbit away on social media about the "blackmail campaigns" despite not even the FBI making any such claim)...she is being punished in the media for Robert Maxwell's crimes.

What next: when Maxwell's lawyers inevitably hold a press conference to announce they are formerly filing an appeal will there be a self imposed media boycott with small media outlets terrified to report it?

Think of all the terrible cases in the UK (and USA) of people wrongly jailed for murder and rape and who had convictions overturned after endless campaigns by supporters and lawyers.

The Maxwell conviction is now unique : no alternative view will be tolerated..any relative or supported must be silenced under threat of decimation in the media and any outlet that publishes them will be attacked.
.
She has become the USA's Jimmy Savile: not only will no alternative belief or view be tolerated..those who expound one will be the "fags" loaded at the base of the Witch's bonfire.

It's legitimate to ask questions about why the BBC chose Dershowitz as an objective expert commentator given his close connection to the case. Of course, in reality, it's probably because he put himself forward, is media-savvy, and given the holiday period, whereby it is decreed that the UK shuts down for a fortnight, no-one else could be arsed.

I agree with you that it's distinctly worrying that the media response is otherwise almost entirely one-sided. There's a narrative we are 'told' to believe, and I like you am rather sceptical of it.

I have so many questions that I literally don't know where to start.

imgflip.com/i/5bkupg

Dark humour, but very funny