I think the human race does tend to stray onto the path of self destruction. As much as I have great sympathy for the those in Kenya whom feel they have been betrayed, there can be no excuses for the slaughter we see horrifically played out before the watching world. What are they gaining from raping, torturing and killing their fellow citizens? Attack the powers that be, yes, take up arms and embark on revolution, but why destroy what you have around you?

I don't understand it.

Western colonial powers are responsible, Chrissy. They pillaged Africa, carving out borders and sharing them out amongst themselves, leaving illogical countries full of tribal hatred.

They rightfully have their independence now, but we left them ill equipped and with no legacy to deal with it. It will be many years and many tragedies before Africa is able to sort itself.

I fully agree, Anthony.

It would have been better - instead of rushing to independence for these states when they demanded it - to have agreed to a future handover (say 25 years hence) and then set a realistic time-table for gradual handover, giving the locals some time to build infrastructure / civil service etc, under the guidance of the colonial power, without a sudden switch from colonial to nothing !

Western powers may have altered the make up of certain African states, but the way some Kenyans are behaving today is entirely their own decision. They have the choice to follow peace or violence; and they have chosen violence. It's a 'cop out' to blame history.

Fair comment, Cat. I suppose we're all right. I stand by my opinion of the cause and effect, but as human beings, we do of course have choices to try and shape our own destiny, however difficult the circumstances, and an obligation to behave responsibly.

The Cat wrote:
They have the choice to follow peace or violence; and they have chosen violence.

It's hard not to agree - but undoubtedly also true that had (for example) the ANC not challenged the white supremacists of South Africa they would still be slaves today.

The Cat wrote:
Western powers may have altered the make up of certain African states, but the way some Kenyans are behaving today is entirely their own decision. They have the choice to follow peace or violence; and they have chosen violence. It's a 'cop out' to blame history.
Agreed.

It seems to me to be a very "colonial" attitude to suggest current problems are due to the colonials.

After all those primitive peoples will fight amongst themselves without the white hand of reason to sort it out.

zooloo wrote:
[b]
It seems to me to be a very "colonial" attitude to suggest current problems are due to the colonials.

After all those primitive peoples will fight amongst themselves without the white hand of reason to sort it out.


I see where you are coming from, zooloo, but that wasn't my angle, either consciously or subconsciously.

You can't deny that before Western colonization, Africa had a totally different system. We imposed our values on them and left them in a mess. Without our intervention, they would have been able to develop according to their own cultural needs and in their own time.

Anthony wrote:
I see where you are coming from, zooloo, but that wasn't my angle, either consciously or subconsciously.

You can't deny that before Western colonization, Africa had a totally different system. We imposed our values on them and left them in a mess. Without our intervention, they would have been able to develop according to their own cultural needs and in their own time.[/quote]
I have very little idea of the political situation in Africa before western involvement - except that some tribes captured and sold other tribes as slaves.

If that is so then the inter-tribal problems pre-exist colonial involvement and what we see is a return to pre-colonial ways.

With the caveat that my opinion isn't a particularly informed one what I think is this is an example of early democracy.

Before you reach the European level it takes many years for the culture and institutions to become ingrained enough to resist/accommodate change.

An example for the UK is Scotland, I remember a fellow on the World Service explaining that Scottish "independence" wouldn't mean any large scale or significant changes, because the institutions are so well established.

Europe went through the same turmoil as some parts of Africa the main difference being bows and arrows rather than guns and rockets.

You're right, zooloo. I think everyone is right in their own way on this thread and it takes us full circle back to Chrissy's original post. The self-destructiveness of humanity.