Quote by George W -

"No one would argue that this war has not come at a high cost in lives and treasure, but those costs are necessary when we consider the cost of a strategic victory for our enemies in Iraq."

--

He's now planning his trip to the Beijing Olympics, and WONT be calling for democracy, the freeing of the 7 million detainees etc - too much business to be done !

According to the ORB research firm in the Guardian, there could be up to 1,446,063 deaths in Iraq since the invasion due to the war.

And the worst thing is - nobody in the UK or USA gives a shit.

This new century is the celebration of total lack of respect for human life from other humans.

We deserve all we get.

It's not true that nobody in the UK or USA gives a shit, JK.

Nobody implies everybody. However, there are many of us who do care. There are even politicians on both sides who have campaigned against the war from the start.

It's only those with the most power who seem to not care.

JC wrote:
It's not true that nobody in the UK or USA gives a shit, JK.

Nobody implies everybody. However, there are many of us who do care. There are even politicians on both sides who have campaigned against the war from the start.

It's only those with the most power who seem to not care.

JC,

You know what really amazes me? The young people ! Why do they simply accept what is happening? It never would have happened years ago.

The movement to bring about the end of the Vietnam War was started and largely motivated by caring young people - who took to the streets in huge numbers and brough mass publicity (and attention) to the issue.

Where are they now?

That's the selfish soulless society built by Thatcher and Blair for you, ITK. No young person in this country has known anything different.

There are a lot of young people objecting to the war. Problem is that most of them do their objecting online on forums and making Youtube videos. Back in the 1960s there was no internet and so people got together in person and were more noticeable. There was no e-alternative in the 1960s.

But why should it be just the young people? How many of us have got off our backsides and done something? Let's not criticise others while we are just as complacent.

On the other hand there have been quite a number of large rallies throughout the world.

Anthony wrote:
That's the selfish soulless society built by Thatcher and Blair for you, ITK. No young person in this country has known anything different.

Too true, Anthony. It's the "me" scoiety.

JC wrote:

But why should it be just the young people? How many of us have got off our backsides and done something? Let's not criticise others while we are just as complacent.

On the other hand there have been quite a number of large rallies throughout the world.

I was on the initial anti-war rally (the largest gathering of people EVER seen in Britain) - but when I realised that they were not going to listen - even to that number of people - I started campaigning in a different way.

JK2006 wrote:
According to the ORB research firm in the Guardian, there could be up to 1,446,063 deaths in Iraq since the invasion due to the war.

And the worst thing is - nobody in the UK or USA gives a shit.

This new century is the celebration of total lack of respect for human life from other humans.

We deserve all we get.

This is slightly off-topic but for alot of my life i believed in God and the general decency of the human race, but now having read things like this and all the rapes and murders we hear about, I've come to realize that the human race is a malignancy and nothing more than a stain on the rest of an otherwise beautiful, perfect Earth.

The sooner we wipe ourselves out the better.

HisWestiness wrote:

The sooner we wipe ourselves out the better.

I believe that Man is the only species on the planet to behave like this ... so-called wild animals will hunt for food (but not pleasure, and never wearing red jackets !) but do not themselves hunt any species to extinction.

Some animals do hunt for fun, e.g. cats and foxes often play with their prey and kill it without eating it. Animals are also well known to fight to the death over territory. Mink are currently threatening the very existence of the British water vole which is now close to extinction.

The cuddly bunny stories of our childhood were never very accurate.

Not all men are warmongers. Some devote their entire lives to promoting peace. Unfortunately, their lack of aggression tends to prevent them from attaining any kind of high office. Man hasn't really changed over the centuries, but he now uses different kinds of weapons.

JC wrote:
Unfortunately, their lack of aggression tends to prevent them from attaining any kind of high office. Man hasn't really changed over the centuries, but he now uses different kinds of weapons.

Indeed - sad to say it, but violence attracts attention (and tends to achieve results).

If the anti-war marchers had caused a riot - would the Government still have ignorred them?

After the Poll Tax riots the Government let it be known within days that the system would be scrapped, didn't they?

Ah, the poll tax riots. I remember them well.

It was about money. People who had thus far not had to pay anything into society, wanting to keep from having to pay anything into society. I was quite happy to pay the poll tax because I felt that it was the fairest system. If people couldn't afford to pay, if they were on benefits for example, then it was paid for them, so poverty was never an excuse. We now pay far more in taxes via various stealth measures.

So the poll tax riots were a different kettle of fish. They were not about principle or rights and wrongs; just about money. They were actually quite a disgrace. The system was scrapped for a variety of reasons, not least a division within the government. The rioters were a tiny percentage of the population and not that instrumental in the decision.

Good point Al.

It is all too easy to get protests if the slogan is simplistic enough - which is the other side of the tabloid headline caricature game.

Tax is something we all have to pay - how it is calculated is usually a problem for some people - look at the council tax and some refusing to pay and going to jail; is it really any better than the poll tax concept?

Al wrote:
So the poll tax riots were a different kettle of fish. They were not about principle or rights and wrongs; just about money.

No differnce though, is there? If the Poll Tax riots had been peaceful (as were the anti-war demos) then the Government would simply have ignorred them.

Violence brought action !

Do you think the Tibet monks would be headline news around the world today if they were peacefully praying and holding silent protests (as they have done for years) ?

I spoke too soon when I said the world was full of apathy.
Hundreds arrested across the USA - the land of the free ! - for demonstrating against the illegal invasion -

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1310071,00.html

what enemies did Geroge Bush have in Iraq ?

Violent protest is illegal, and undesirable, and therefore cannot be ignored. That does not make it right. The situation under an opressive regime where the people have no freedom of speech or right to vote against their government is quite different to the situation in the UK (for now).

If you protest violently in a democracy you defeat yourself at the start. If you protest peacefully in large enough numbers you are likely to earn more respect and have more effect.

The poll tax protest was hijacked by anarchists who took advantage of the event. It was not the violence which brought about change. That was just the superficial banner headline stuff.

Al wrote:


If you protest violently in a democracy you defeat yourself at the start. If you protest peacefully in large enough numbers you are likely to earn more respect and have more effect.

... or be completely ignorred !

The poll tax protest was hijacked by anarchists who took advantage of the event. It was not the violence which brought about change. That was just the superficial banner headline stuff.

It worked ! The Tories announced (within days) that they would scrap the tax as soon as they had worked out what to do next !