Poor Blossom has quite enough on her plate so here's the continuation of the GOD topic.

Zooloo asks us to define GOD.

I define GOD as the power which starts the life process.

I have no idea what it is - I'm an ITDOESN'TMATTERist.

Whether we meet GOD when we die and whether there is an after life - I have no idea.

So I don't lead my life by any belief in how or why it started. I'm here. I can cope with the situation. I get on with it. And build my own morality to live by - not to hurt others, to experience a lot, to create, to make others happy etc...

But LIFE can appear to be started by man - when we plant a seed, in a woman or in the ground. However, the life force is already there, in the seed.

What starts the life cycle - who knows? We may well never know. Or we may know when we appear to die (remember, our bodies, buried in the ground, create more, different life).

So I don't go along with organised religion but equally I don't agree with atheists.
We don't know so let's not guess - either way.

Believing in God is a matter of faith not evidence in the scientific sense.

I actually believe that our 3D world does not have even a millionth of the answers about why we are here - the nature of matter and atoms - and so on.

The complexity of our Universe ( The small bit we know ) leads me to believe that a creative force or person is at work.

To define that person is impossible for a human mind. It would be mind boggling.

What I believe about "organised" religion is that JESUS' teaching is probably the best example that we could have. He claimed to be one with the Father and in that sense even New Age religions can identify with Christianity.

If we have a belief in God and lead our lives according to the teachings of Jesus then I dont think we can do any harm - and in fact it is beneficial to the human race to live this way.

I basically dont argue with atheists or anyone - because it is a matter of faith and I cant make an argument to support my beliefs because it is based on faith. I also am yet to meet anyone who can prove that there is no God and that Jesus teaching's are bad.

I only asked for definition in context of other's asking anyone to disprove "God". Before an attempt can be made to prove or disprove a thing it's prudent to define what the object is.

In the case of your version it's not something that can be proved/disproved as it's naming part of a process. As you're not demanding one's behaviour should be modified according to this "God" the existence, real or convenient, doesn't really matter.

BR mentions a force or person beyond our comprehension.

Even if that person/force is as you claim incomprehensible it's effect would not be. As there is no evident consistent effect it is reasonable to believe there is no singular cause.

Basing our lives on the teaching of somebody like Jesus I think would be the highest folly. For example I don't think we should hate our parents nor do I think we should kill people who don't believe what we do.

Part of Jesus's teaching, such as where he echoes Cicero on not harbouring animosity I do agree with but on the whole I think Jesus is a good example of why we shouldn't follow one person's view wholesale.

Jesus's teachings are not entirely bad but they aren't entirely good either.

Again you bring up that you are yet to find somebody who can disprove God (Which were I came in ) I am happy to give this a go.

The first step is for you to define "God" please.

(I'm assuming your "God" is the one of the Old Testament but it may be you view that one as either literal or symbolic)

I`m agnostic, but the simple answer is God is where you are at today.

On an individual basis God is there to fill gaps in human knowledge. Before humans knew what the sun and moon were, they were worshipped as gods. Until there is scientific proof of how the universe and life began, people will continue to give God the credit.

Of course he/she/it is also there as a source of comfort for human suffering, loss and mortality.

Politically, God has been invented as a means of controlling the masses and nothing more.

I have no interest in attempting to disprove the existence of God. It is up to believers to provide me with proof. Even a little shred of evidence would be nice, but I will not be holding my breath.

Z - interesting post.

Which of Jesus teachings do you think is bad ?

What I like about Jesus is that he healed the sick - raised the dead - did not bow down to money - and was prepared to put his life on the line for what he thought was right.

I really think that if we all had such a positive view of life and loved everyone around us with such a passion then the World would be a better place. There would be no wars - people would share where there was need - greed for money would mean that slavery and much else would not be necessary in order to make profits. Our current economy is based on slavery in third world countries - just because it is out of sight does not mean it is not happening. The sweatshops that make our NIKE and PRIMARK clothes have people who live in relative poverty to us - and wages that would be tens of times under our minimum wage with H&S standards that would not be tolerated in the UK.

If we say we have advanced why as a "clever" nation do we still seek to "Keep other nations" down ?

Jesus teaching tells us that we are wrong. That is hard for some people to deal with. It makes us feel some guilt. Is that what you are getting at ? but for a Christian it is not guilt we feel for this. Our aim is to try and change things - to make a difference - to show how love can change lives and to appreciate that as human beings we are flawed and make mistakes.

Surely trying to have progress in our own lives in the way Jesus suggests is positive ? Even if it does not lead to Heaven or a New Life - surely that would be an enlightened way to lead a life - rather than just grabbing knowledge and money.

I dont study philosphy and people like ICKE can point to many "jesus" figures in many cultures. Perhaps God is speaking through these people to all of us - trying to help us to make the most of our existance on this planet.

If there is no reason to be here then the least we can do is to enjoy the one life and to try and help others to do the same.

Nowhere does Jesus teach people to hate their parents or to kill those who believe differently.

I knew a woman who was distressed because the Bible said that children must be made to suffer. "Suffer the children to come to me." I explained that it meant "encourage" and that it was merely the old King James terminology which confused the issue. Modern translations make the message more easily understandable - but those who choose not to understand will never understand.

"The word of God is foolishness to those who do not believe." 1 Corinthians 1:18

Here endeth todays sermon.

BR/Denise - bad teachings of Jesus:

Hate your parents -

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Kill the unbelievers -

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Love and peace? Not really -

Matthew 10:34-36 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

These are a few examples there's certainly more that reflect rather poorly on Jesus and his temperamental ways.

His "good" teachings are common to religions that precede him, certainly not unique to him. I would not question their value but I would question pretending he was the sole voice and for that reason remarkable.

It surprises me how selective people are regarding what they consider to be the word of God. People pick and choose disregarding things that are inconvenient to them.

Like how to define God, Zoo?

Is God not that person that appears on the Eurovison commercial for the BBC?

Luke 14:26 isn't about Jesus telling us to hate people. I already touched on the old English phraseology. This is about putting God first above everything. Taking the teachings of Jesus altogther, rather than certain parts out of context, shows this quite clearly.

Luke 19:27 - one of your more ridiculous examples as this is taken from a parable (story) that Jesus was telling about a fictitious King.

Matthew 10:34-35 uses the word sword symbolically. It is about how becoming a Christian will cause divisions within families and friendships when others refuse to accept your beliefs.

As you said - "People pick and choose, disregarding things that are inconvenient to them."

Of course the teachings of love and peace have been around before Jesus. Christianity is about salvation, not just a template for peaceful living. It is based around the belief that Jesus is the only true way to God and an eternal life. It is also made very clear that this must be a personal choice and not forced on anyone. You are quite free to not believe, just as others are quite free to believe.

Well I`m lost on this topic and probably because my Grandad was a preacher and it was forced into me as a subject , and as kids do, it gets ignored in the brain and has remained so to this day for myself.

Denise is right.

The quotes you have made are out of context and are not literal.

Often Jesus talked in Parables and almost riddles. It was his way of telling a story. The truth in its barest form is often not gentle enough for ordinary people.

If you say to someone they are evil or going to hell - then they will rightly laugh or tell you to shut up. It scares them. If you show people the right way to live ( as in the Parable of the Good Samaritan ) then they work it out for themselves so that it makes sense.

This is why the "Stories" in the Bible have so much resonance with people. Take even the Old Testament stories like JOSEPH or MOSES and the 10 COMMANDMENTS or the BUILDING OF THE TEMPLE. Even the CREATION STORY ( which you could take literally or if you follow Jesus you would know it was a Parable of how God created the World in a way that people would understand at the time )

God is a simple concept - either you have faith and believe in a higher power or you dont. If you do and you seek truth then you may find one set of teachings hits you as the truth.......I think if you look at the life of Jesus and look through what he actually did ( not that there is that much detail ) you can see someone who cared and someone who was dearly cared for. He also did not have a problem in standing up to what was wrong with society - hence his death.

Others have come of the same mould - Gandhi - Martin Luther King etc. it seems as a society we cant handle the truth of how to live so elements of our society kill anyone who preaches love and forgiveness.

Why does this happen ? Is it SATAN - or is it the evil in the World - such as the NWO who are power crazed and for whom WARS = profit and influence.

BLAIR saw that THATCHER increased her poll ratings with the FALKLANDS WAR = so he waged several wars in his 10 years. More than any other PM in history. He was a WARMONGER. Waging war to bring peace.

JK2006 wrote:
Like how to define God, Zoo?
I don't understand this, please clarify.

Denise/BR

A parable is Jesus's teachings he may be putting the word into another's mouth but they remain his teachings. If Jesus didn't want something included in the point he was making why would he include it?

(BR too) This is an area that I find troublesome. Sometimes what is written in the Bible the obvious meaning is what is meant. Other times what is written is not what the obvious meaning at all, indeed the meaning is something contrary.

There is a pattern to this.

When it's something reasonable the meaning is the obvious, when it's something unsavoury (Kill disobedient children) or inconvenient (Give away all your possessions) the meaning is no longer what is written but something else.

I am sure anyone with an open-mind would be suspicious of such motives.

I'm not a bible student or even a good christian but I have read the bible and must say I've never seen where it says to kill disobediant children. I guess I could google key words and try to find verses which fit my agenda.

I understand the parable of the king who ordered his enemies to be killed was referring to judgement day, the lake of fire, etc. not an order for christians to go kill non believers. To me that was kinda obvious on first reading. The new testament preaches peace and love. The only part I'd find hard is putting god before my family, which probably means I don't believe as much as a christian should. But I would never knock those who do believe.

Live and let live.

I think I'd only attack christianity if it made me feel insecure, which it doesnt.

To me, God is whatever force created the universe. I doubt that our science can ever explain where the atom came from which then mysteriously exploded and, by chance, resulted in the formation of a very complex and well balanced world. The big bang theory doesn't come near to explaining it.

"disregarding things that are inconvenient to them", Zoo... like when a definition does not conform to an easily disproved formula.

JK2006 wrote:
"disregarding things that are inconvenient to them", Zoo... like when a definition does not conform to an easily disproved formula.
That's because in the context of the question the definition is inadequate. It hasn't been disregarded simply because it's inconvenient.

The definition begs the question "What force?". (That isn't rhetorical, I am sincerely interested in the answer)

Well Zoo, for me the fact that human beings do not have the capacity to understand the original force defines GOD.

It is something beyond our comprehension.

Who knows, ants may not be able to understand Darwinian evolution - they may be even further down the chain of comprehension. Or they may understand better the original force which created life.

It is something we cannot know so choose, sometimes, to believe.
I live my life according to what I can see, feel, touch, observe... so, to me, the incomprehensible doesn't matter. That's why I'm an ITDOESNTMATTERist.

And it means I don't disbelieve either (that's just a version of belief - atheism).

I don't know. I may or may not be informed after death. Who cares?

It is not, incidentally, a PART of the process; it is the START of the process.

We can understand the Universe. But what is OUTSIDE the universe?

In short God = I don't know.

Surely it's an impossible task to ask someone to disprove something that you don't know what it is?