It was all in the wording. Gay, indeed! Why play mono when you can hear stereo?

Anyone who knows me would laugh at the idea that I would in any way 'tow the line' for the government or mass media. I do not fall for any of their bullshit.

And in terms of my original point, one only has to scroll down this page to see which type of topic stimulates this board the most.

Yes Pete - a few years ago in another country with similar subtle social ideas, posts daring to talk about the attitude towards Jews would have provoked similar outrage.

Think about it. There's an agenda going on. Does anywhere else dare to suggest something smells about the Vanessa George prosecution?

OK then, tell me what you think about the Vanessa George situation.

No, hang on a minute, let me guess...

She's innocent? Even though she confessed, she was making it all up?

Please, please, please JK, enlighten us with your eternal wisdom.

No Pete but there is something odd about the entire episode. Three predators and not one named or found victim? George interviewed without solicitor present? Despite the judge promising to take it in her favour, no names given? Something odd. Over to you.

I have no idea JK, and to tell you the truth, I don't really care.

It was conventional wisdom that the Birmingham 6 were guilty.In fact we now all know the truth.
If we do not challenge orthodoxy we will arrive in the '1984' state the 2 main parties have dragged us into over the last 30 years.

Pete,nobody is here to defend genuine pedos,but we are here to defend the many innocents caught up and sentenced by badly planned laws.Remember the Carl Bridgewater wrongful convictions? Well since 2003 the laws which freed innocent men have been changed.Now the police and the CPS decide which evidence the defence can see,before they had it all....and it's what they hide.
Sexual abuse laws are the worst of all,and only a few places have the guts to stand up and fight.This is why Pete the many of us involved make posts about them.And why you're in the minority here,and lucky you were not caught up in them yourself.
As I said before in a previous post,because many of us have been involved with sex abuse on here then it is an important part of the board for us.So commonsense will dictate many posts will be up concerning it.Also commonsense will dictate that you're still probably in the wrong place if you find this to be a problem.

And you're quite entitled not to care, Pete. If we're honest, neither do any of us. I truly believe Dr David Kelly did not commit suicide - but I don't care enough to do anything about it. I don't think Harold Shipman was the monster the tabloids portrayed, merely a silly old doctor who killed a few people, but I don't care enough to do anything except write and record a song about it.

I suspect there were a few Germans who didn't feel all Jews deserved to have their windows broken or worse but I doubt if there was even a forum like this for them to say "hold on".

You'll care when they come for you though.

You're right, and I agree with mostly everything you say.

What gets me though, is the almost constant assertion that in any high profile case - be it sexual abuse by a nursery worker, or an extreme act of thuggery by a footballer - the accused is innocent, and that the police, CPS, et al have been either corrupt or incompetent.

People DO commit terrible crimes, you know. And when they are caught they deserve to be punished for them.

Of course, there are many miscarriages of justice, and I sympathise greatly with anyone who has been wrongly accused of any crime.

However, when crimes involving the abuse of children are discussed here, some of the comments make me very uncomfortable, so maybe you're right, this isn't the place for me anymore.

I started coming here when it was a music industry message board. It stopped being that a long time ago, but I kept coming 'cos I liked the stuff that was being talked about.

I wish you all well. Goodbye.

I'm sure you'll pop back to see what the reaction is to your goodbye.

There are only two main points that I can see. One is that we are all entitled to be presumed innocent and that it's up to the police/CPS to prove guilt, but when that principle is openly abandoned we, as fellow humans, have a duty to question the system and any decisions made within it. It is primarily in cases of alleged sexual abuse that the burden of proof has been scrapped, and so it's not surprising to find most modern miscarriages of justice fall within that area - resulting in most debates being concentrated in that area too. It doesn't mean that posters on here believe that all alleged sex offenders are innocent, just that they deserve a fair hearing and are granted the same basic rights as everyone else which, unfortunately, they do not get from the mainstream media. So, it's mostly about introducing a balance.

The second is that the music forum is The Tipsheet. This forum is for views on a much wider variety of subjects. I think I got that right, JK?

Bye Peter. Enjoy whatever else you find to spend your time on.

Pete Clarke wrote:
You're right, and I agree with mostly everything you say.

What gets me though, is the almost constant assertion that in any high profile case - be it sexual abuse by a nursery worker, or an extreme act of thuggery by a footballer - the accused is innocent, and that the police, CPS, et al have been either corrupt or incompetent.

People DO commit terrible crimes, you know. And when they are caught they deserve to be punished for them.

Of course, there are many miscarriages of justice, and I sympathise greatly with anyone who has been wrongly accused of any crime.

However, when crimes involving the abuse of children are discussed here, some of the comments make me very uncomfortable, so maybe you're right, this isn't the place for me anymore.

I started coming here when it was a music industry message board. It stopped being that a long time ago, but I kept coming 'cos I liked the stuff that was being talked about.

I wish you all well. Goodbye.

Now Pete,you're getting confused by where we're coming from.While there are many miscarriages of justice we are NOT assuming guilt or innocence in this case.What we want is justice,and for the full facts to surface.By asking questions we are keeping up the spirit of rigorous examination.
While I personally believe there may well be some guilt,I also believe a lot of stuff is hidden,and am concerned with people getting a fair verdict,and being judged accordingly.

If it's music you are after use the tipsheet message board.Your Views has always had its share of sexual abuse discussion,and because of JK's life history will no doubt continue to do so.
Nobody is pushing you away but yourself,your choice,but if you do stay here be aware of why many of us our here.You have a choice,some of us have been deprived of that choice.

I can't speak for everyone else Pete but I too think most posters consider many accused to be guilty but simply feel the fairness and balance have been shattered and the combination of police, media and CPS means crimes get hugely inflated in the telling.

I can speak for my own experience in prison. 20% absolutely deserved to be there. 20% were totally innocent. And 60%, including myself, were guilty of something but not what they got convicted for. I'm not a child molester and I never pushed anyone into doing anything they didn't want to but bisexuality with consenting teens was illegal at the time.

As for continuing to visit - it's up to you. We post all points of view and that is not popular with many. Toys? Pram?

Pete Clarke wrote:
You're right, and I agree with mostly everything you say.

What gets me though, is the almost constant assertion that in any high profile case - be it sexual abuse by a nursery worker, or an extreme act of thuggery by a footballer - the accused is innocent, and that the police, CPS, et al have been either corrupt or incompetent.

People DO commit terrible crimes, you know. And when they are caught they deserve to be punished for them.

Of course, there are many miscarriages of justice, and I sympathise greatly with anyone who has been wrongly accused of any crime.

However, when crimes involving the abuse of children are discussed here, some of the comments make me very uncomfortable, so maybe you're right, this isn't the place for me anymore.

I started coming here when it was a music industry message board. It stopped being that a long time ago, but I kept coming 'cos I liked the stuff that was being talked about.

I wish you all well. Goodbye.

Without wishing to be rude I think Pete is taking a head in the sand approach. No-one on here or I'm sure anywhere would wish a person who does a child harm not to be punished.

But there is something happening and it's going to encroach upon everyone in some way eventually. The post about photographers being hassled is one example..law enforcement is beginning to act illegally at times and the Menedez murder followed by the other death by an innocent bystander should demonstrate that adequately.

In sex cases there is an unholy alliance between authorities and the media..a line has been crossed- and that is having a disastrous effect and I believe does little to protect children and I believe I could advance a dozen arguments that prove it does the opposite-harms children.

Ignoring it will not make it go away and people should feel unconfortable. If they don't, that is a problem.

On every forum, sooner or later, there is somebody who feels the need to shout loudly that they are less of a paedophile than everybody else.

I've learn't to be very wary of such people.

A few years back, I used to have fun whenever I encountered such a person in a forum or a chatroom. I would create the fake profile of a 15 year old girl and then send a private message to the person. And you know what? Time after time they would take the (jail)bait. One time I was in Yahoo London chat at the height of the Soham Pedohysteria witchhunts. Some nerd had come into the room screaming about what they should do to Huntley and how the harddrives of every single person in the country needed to be examined. Within ten minutes he was arranging to meet up with me for sex (a '15 year old girl').

Just go to YouTube and do a search for 'sexy girl dance' and then click on the profiles of some of the people screaming 'kill the paedophiles' in the comments below. At least 20% of the time you will see that they have favourited some really dodgy videos. And that's just the pedocrites who are stupid enough to leave such evidence!

I looked at the profile once of somebody who had left some particularly nasty comments under a JK video on YouTube - his favourites folder contained nothing but pre-teen gymnast videos!

There are so many disturbed people on this planet.

Not a game I would encourage anyone to play Incognito; but I see what you're saying.

Yes, there are plenty of hypocrites (there, I spelt it right this time) on YouTube. At the moment, there are some very nasty comments about a video of a 2002 BBC 2 programme entitled "The Search For Britain's Paedophiles", featuring an interview with the late paedophile Mark Hansen, who, a few hours after the intervirew, killed himself rather than go to prison for sexually interfering with young boys.

The vitriol of some of the posters about Mark Hansen and the obscure, largely censored and blanked out video footage of Hansen and a couple boys is very potent. One guy described in detail how he would hunt down and kill Hansen for what he was and what he'd done. Obviously, he hadn't watched the video properly, or he'd have known that Hansen has already been dead for over seven years. But seriously, would he really want to go to prison for life for murdering someone he didn't know who was accused of molesting a boy that he, the poster, had never met? If he went around killing everybody he didn't agree with, he'd soon find himself locked up for a good many years.

Then there are the "Oh, my God! I feel sick watching this! I'm going to throw up!" types, of which there are many on YouTube. Well, if it makes them sick to watch it, then why are they watching it? Are they really serious when they state that watching a paedophile being interviewed by a BBC reporter and seeing some extremely grainy and indistinct photos of a man laying on a bed with a boy sends them rushing to the toilet to vomit in the toilet basin? If so, they can't have seen very much in life if they are so easily shocked by such blurry images. Most of us have seen far worse things than that, as bad as it is.

crikey..I didn't know all this stuff was on youtube !

I only go there to see singers I like , like Susan Boyle or the Beatles channel, Joni Mitchell and so on.

I must make sure I never make Jedward a favourite..God only knows what they will say.