It's odd, isn't it, that when it comes to justifying their blood lust for the likes of John Venables, 10 year olds are fully aware of what they're doing, and yet the same mob would have 'pedos' hung up for looking at an innocent 17 year old 'child'.

I can understand people who were close to Jamie Bulger having deep anger towards Venables and Thompson but I dare say that most of the lynch mob had never heard of him before his murder and have nothing to do with the case whatsoever. For them it's not about justice but a need to satisfy their lust for blood. They are probably the same as those who burn down the homes of paediatricians after being whipped into a frenzy by certain Sunday papers. They don't have any first hand knowledge but pretend they have the right to sit in judgement.

This latest development appears to have nothing to do with the Bulger case, apart from one of the same people being involved. It should be judged on it's own merit. Speculation only fuels the emotions of the ignorant.

One woman on TV said they should open the doors to his cell and let the other prisoners hang him. "That's what I'd do," she said. In my opinion that means she has just as violent a personality as those she wants to condemn and is just as dangerous. The difference between Venables and her is that he was a ten year old boy, while she is an adult. His lack of judgement and self control was based on his very limited experience of life. What is her excuse?

What is the excuse of anybody who calls for the death of someone they've never met based on a few words in a newspaper?

No-one is actually reading and understanding what I say - so I give up!

Well Dex I'm reading and, I think, understanding. You're saying it was a terrible crime, murdering Jamie. I agree. You're saying that even a 10 year old child committing such a crime should never be forgiven. I don't agree. What am I misunderstanding?

I agree mostly with you Dex and I think Emma Bee sums it up.

I can't imagine where the 2 killer's heads were at..I can't imagine the effect on the parents and close ones of the little boy's awful death.

I can remember when I was that age though..I was at times a bit mean to younger ones and I can see it was because others were being mean to me. I was bullied so I bullied others who I thought couldn't fight back. It isn't a nice thought but it was never physical -just verbal and it worries me now after all this time.

Obviously Venables and the other were are 100 times more extreme.

But society must forgive at some stage or we just become a jungle. Those who call for outlandish retriubtion scare me. We haven't come far from lynch mob mentality-only the law corrals it but the media continues to inflame it.

And psychologists will tell you victims must forgive before they can move on.

When you actually look at what has happened-it's very little. A month ago 99.9% of people didn't remember the guy existed.

Led by the nose by the media for one reason only-profit.

I've encountered many psychologically disturbed children through my job (Clinical psychologist) and in my experience those who are evil at 10 have very little hope of ever becoming anything else.
Society created these monsters and it is only a matter of time before there is another case. Only recently you had boys of the same age torturing, sexually abusing and attempting to murder 2 other boys, leaving them for dead in the process.

Of course the vast majority of kids are decent as are the vast majority of people, but go to any poor area in the evening and you see gangs of kids congregating and causing trouble for anyone in the nearby vicinity. Murders have always happened but they are getting more frequent amongst children. Childhood has been sacrificed by forcing children to grow up too quickly and removing all the fun from their lives far too early. Access to adult environments, while unsupervised, contributes greatly to this.

Under the versions of Sharia law used in Pakistan and Iran. Both boys would have received several hundred lashes and then been publicly hanged. These mobs calling for this clearly would support the kind of laws implemented by the harshest interpretations of Sharia law.

The media make me sick, fabricating lies every day. Now it's a child porn offence is it ? I wonder which hack at the Sunday Mirror invented that story for effect ? "WE haven't had enough reaction yet so let's throw in the words "Child porn" and that will create a facebook vigilante posse with millions in 3 days..

I can just see my group invitation already:

"Join the group to get John Vennables balls cut off cos we think he is scum. We are decent peple and he aint"

I grew up sheltered and protected from riff raff on my nice little Scottish island then came to England and saw for myself the evidence which prime ministers seem to think is something to be grateful for. When I retire I'll go back there and hopefully there won't be 10 year olds wanting to murder people and there might still be a corner of this broken society that I can feel safe in.

Foregiveness is not for us. It is for the Bulger family. What Society needs to ensure is that people like Venables are kept in a way that they cannot harm other members of society.

From today's press this is clearly not the case here. The main indicator for further offences of violence in these cases is that they have done it before and time and time again, innocent people suffer and die when so-called experts release evil or damaged (take your choice) back into society.

As expected, there are dozens of silly facebook groups.
Here is one of silliest - and surely illegal?

www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=10150108867910084&ref=search&sid=514203319.322629554..1

I seem to recall that a group of teenagers set fire to a man and filmed his agonising death on their mobile phones while they laughed at his suffering. I wonder if a similar fuss will be made if one of them re-offends or breaches conditions after release, or does the fact that their victim was an adult make it less wrong?

And will his widow or his children be granted a meeting with a government minister?

On another angle raised in this thread, it's interesting that in the Arab world where unrelated men and boys hang out freely together, as do women and girls, there is little crime committed by children, whereas it does seem to be a problem in Western civilized society where the generations are kept apart by various dictates. Could it be that the higher level of adult influence helps to teach them about how to interact better with their fellow humans? An Arab child will see an adult as someone to learn from and emulate, but a Western child sees an adult as someone to be afraid of.

Emma Bee wrote:


On another angle raised in this thread, it's interesting that in the Arab world where unrelated men and boys hang out freely together, as do women and girls, there is little crime committed by children, whereas it does seem to be a problem in Western civilized society where the generations are kept apart by various dictates. Could it be that the higher level of adult influence helps to teach them about how to interact better with their fellow humans? An Arab child will see an adult as someone to learn from and emulate, but a Western child sees an adult as someone to be afraid of.

In the Arab world, children can still be thrashed by their fathers on a daily basis and can be tried for adult crimes at 9 years old hence a rather stronger deterrent then we have in the Western world.

These 10 year olds now shout at the police and their parents "You can't fuckin' touch me.I know my rights". I suspect they might not be so keen to do wrong if the consequences were different.

From what I understand some British kids are thrashed on a daily basis and corporal punishment by parents has not been banned. Thompson and Venables were tried for adult crimes at age 10, so that deterrent isn't much stronger in the Arab world than it is here. Maybe the greater deterrent to crime over there is the level of punishment, including capital, but crimes are still committed, as they were in the days when we had capital punishment, and so that is obviously not so great a deterrent. Few people would commit a crime with a view to getting caught. The only real deterrent is an effective police or security presence beforehand rather than any threat of punishment afterwards.

I think there is much to be said for greater interaction among the age groups in society. The young can learn much from the experience of the old.

More speculation about John Venables on the radio this morning. Apparently Jack Straw might reveal more details about John Venables later today. If he's grabbed an Uzi machine gun and is heading in my direction then I'll feel the need to know, but I've no desire to lap up gossip about what he might or might not have done to get himself re-arrested. If we are to believe statistics, about a quarter of the population view child porn (of various definitions) and so if he's guilty of that it doesn't make Venables much different from other guys his age.

Too many people are judging him on what he did before, which means it's doubtful that he can get a fair trial this time. Even if the "truth" has been spilled by the media, Jack Straw should maintain a responsible silence.

JC wrote:
From what I understand some British kids are thrashed on a daily basis and corporal punishment by parents has not been banned. Thompson and Venables were tried for adult crimes at age 10, so that deterrent isn't much stronger in the Arab world than it is here. Maybe the greater deterrent to crime over there is the level of punishment, including capital, but crimes are still committed, as they were in the days when we had capital punishment, and so that is obviously not so great a deterrent. Few people would commit a crime with a view to getting caught. The only real deterrent is an effective police or security presence beforehand rather than any threat of punishment afterwards.



A parent cannot remove a belt and strike a child with it in the UK. They can do it as much as they like in Arabic countries. Anything beyond a gentle slap in the UK warrants social services. Not the case in Arabic countries. I spent 18 months in Dubai working in child psychology so I have experience rather than just reading statistics or biased websites. Kids there are terrified of the police and you don't get congregating gangs of youngsters causing grief for people, because they can just be rounded up, brutalised by the police and face adult punishments.

I wouldn't want that system here obviously but it is an explanation as to why kids in Arabic countries seem to be better behaved.

interesting piece in today's Guardian.

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/mar/07/jon-ve...s-confessed-identity

mikemacca wrote:
JC wrote:
From what I understand some British kids are thrashed on a daily basis and corporal punishment by parents has not been banned. Thompson and Venables were tried for adult crimes at age 10, so that deterrent isn't much stronger in the Arab world than it is here. Maybe the greater deterrent to crime over there is the level of punishment, including capital, but crimes are still committed, as they were in the days when we had capital punishment, and so that is obviously not so great a deterrent. Few people would commit a crime with a view to getting caught. The only real deterrent is an effective police or security presence beforehand rather than any threat of punishment afterwards.



A parent cannot remove a belt and strike a child with it in the UK. They can do it as much as they like in Arabic countries. Anything beyond a gentle slap in the UK warrants social services. Not the case in Arabic countries. I spent 18 months in Dubai working in child psychology so I have experience rather than just reading statistics or biased websites. Kids there are terrified of the police and you don't get congregating gangs of youngsters causing grief for people, because they can just be rounded up, brutalised by the police and face adult punishments.

I wouldn't want that system here obviously but it is an explanation as to why kids in Arabic countries seem to be better behaved.

True Mike,but you also have a culture thing there.They tend to go to tearooms & cafes to meet,& in fact you're more likely to see groups of families out & about at all hours.
Until the disasterous Iraq invasion it was one of the safest places to go out & about in,as are most muslim countries we haven't ruined.

Innocent Accused wrote:
[b]

True Mike,but you also have a culture thing there.They tend to go to tearooms & cafes to meet,& in fact you're more likely to see groups of families out & about at all hours.
Until the disasterous Iraq invasion it was one of the safest places to go out & about in,as are most muslim countries we haven't ruined.

Have to say I was dealing with Kurdish refugees long before "we" ruined Iraq. Thousands of them came here to escape Saddam and they were extremely disturbed children.

Very few muslim countries are safe if you are female or gay and that has nothing to do with disastrous invasions. e.g. UAE carries the death penalty for being gay

Back on OT I think Mr Straw has actually done something right for once by refusing to give in to hysteria power.

I think Emma summed the problem up perfectly. Every civilisation on Earth has always taken great care to ensure interaction between the generations.

Here in the UK, we've totally screwed it up, and we are witnessing the results.

Unfortunately Macca seems to want to have his cake and eat it.

You complain about kid's knowing that 'you can't touch them' and want 10 year olds to be thrashed in the public square, yet you no doubt lap up the paedohysteria tabloids that create a society where no sane man goes near anyone under 18 for fear of sexual accusations.

Hi All,

Thought you might appreciate this Steve Bell cartoon contribution: www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cartoon...urder-venables-straw

Sorry if it's been posted already.

Best Wishes,
Jim

I have just received a "chain" text message giving out Jon Venables new name, where he lives and what he did to end up in jail. Apparently started by a disgruntled prison warden. Even if this proves to be fake it kind of sums up society in the UK.

Blackit wrote:
I think Emma summed the problem up perfectly. Every civilisation on Earth has always taken great care to ensure interaction between the generations.

Here in the UK, we've totally screwed it up, and we are witnessing the results.

Unfortunately Macca seems to want to have his cake and eat it.

You complain about kid's knowing that 'you can't touch them' and want 10 year olds to be thrashed in the public square, yet you no doubt lap up the paedohysteria tabloids that create a society where no sane man goes near anyone under 18 for fear of sexual accusations.

no amount of fake IDs can mask your insanity

mikemacca wrote:
Innocent Accused wrote:
[b]

True Mike,but you also have a culture thing there.They tend to go to tearooms & cafes to meet,& in fact you're more likely to see groups of families out & about at all hours.
Until the disasterous Iraq invasion it was one of the safest places to go out & about in,as are most muslim countries we haven't ruined.

Have to say I was dealing with Kurdish refugees long before "we" ruined Iraq. Thousands of them came here to escape Saddam and they were extremely disturbed children.

Very few muslim countries are safe if you are female or gay and that has nothing to do with disastrous invasions. e.g. UAE carries the death penalty for being gay

Back on OT I think Mr Straw has actually done something right for once by refusing to give in to hysteria power.

fascinating isn't it - they say that really the whole invasion of Afghanistan is the result of 2 Afghan warlords fighting over a pretty boy when one bombed a village out of jealousy leading to the collapse of both warlord's control and the eventual rise of the hard-line Taliban etc ect and so on.

So someone was very right saying that there isn't a leader throughout history who would't give up his entire empire for a pretty face.

funny old world...