nm

....this theory was suggested to myself by Kev last week. I thought about it and threw some ideas around myself.
However, I decided not to go for it, as I felt that the youth culture element in the band I am looking after, is not something I can really understand.
Advice , production and technique yes, but I just felt that they should learn their own footing, and indeed their own mistakes in writing.
That said, I do agree with it in principle, but I would find the creation with bands very school-like.
I also think, that it is very hard to write a song for an artiste, without having a songster in mind.
Two examples of this that had success, but failure of being taken up BY the acts they were written for are Bruce Springsteens "Hungry Heart", which he wrote for the Ramones, and the Beautiful South`s "Different Sizes", which was for Tom Jones.
One example that did work, was "Don`t You forget about Me", for Simple Minds.
The theory opens, a new line altogether.
Write a song with someone else in mind, and have a hit yourself with it.

You mention Tom Jones and we all felt that Chicane song was a hit but not suited to him.
There are some wonderful older performers (Bassey) with no label or A&R prepared to structure an entire album for them except ONE person...
Clive Davis.
Did it for Rod. Did it for Manilow.
Creative A&R should be seeking out songs; developing an artiste...
Perhaps the closest we come is Chris Briggs (Robbie)...
DISCUSS

I have all the mixes of the Chicane song, and I do have to say, that the version without him on it is best.
But would it have been a hit without the name?

....this theory was suggested to myself by Kev last week. I thought about it and threw some ideas around myself.
However, I decided not to go for it, as I felt that the youth culture element in the band I am looking after, is not something I can really understand.Actually I've done something similar myself with an artist I'm working with. The songs he sings really do need to be his own creations for him to sing them the way he does. The only thing I've done as far as writing goes with him is to point out parts that don't work too well and structures that need amending, I.e. Add an extra verse in here, cut down the overall length of the song etc.

But I'm talking about composing great songs that I couldn't sing in a million years which are perfect for GREAT singer A or terrific performer B or even (as in Martin's case) potential band C who have hits of their own but why not some other people's songs too?
Like Sid Vicious did with My Way.

Sid Vicious... now we've covered all the methods of matching a song to an a singer (in that case the relationship between a manager and publisher).

But this job used to be what A&R was about... matching great songs to (the right) great singers. JK makes the point this went out the window with self-penned stuff.

I don't think that was because it became infra-dig to sing outside material, I think it was born from the frustration of acts who weren't seeing a decent reward - while their labels, publishers and managers got rich. The Fabs notably decided to write after seeing Elvis' experience as a performer.

At the same time the target audience for songs became younger so it was (and frankly still is) easier for a young band to hit their peer group with less mature material. The Beatles would never have been successful writers if the pop audience had stayed tuned to "more sophisticated" show tunes.

There's no doubt (although I get called a whinging Grandad for this) that chart and album songs are less good than they were, and aimed at a younger demographic. But hey! the kids got rich... so mission accomplished?

but great YOUNG writers (the Busted/McFly boys) are few and far between.
Respect by artistes for talented writers has disappeared.
Songwriting is just as great a talent as performing and they are not usually in the same package.

I agree that the "My ways", "Bridge Over troubled Waters" and "I will survives","Tubthumpings" and even "Angels", do not come around very often.
An interesting point emerges here, Guy Chambers could indeed write for any artiste,any age, and it would not sound amiss. What other writers of this calibre are still out there?
Has the demise of publishing thwarted many of these people?
I had my first publishing contract at the age of 22, and was shocked and stunned to find myself covered, within a week or two, as I really did not understand what I had got in to.
Is this practice still sought after by companies, and how has the advent of Myspace changed the way we view the song?

Martin K wrote:
I agree that the "My ways", "Bridge Over troubled Waters" and "I will survives","Tubthumpings" and even "Angels", do not come around very often.
An interesting point emerges here, Guy Chambers could indeed write for any artiste,any age, and it would not sound amiss. What other writers of this calibre are still out there?
(snip)
Diane Warren, a true talent in ways that will never be understood in the columns of the NME (or even The Observer).

But this debate about singers singing their own stuff has a parallel in European cinema, where the director is the child king, pampered and encouraged to write his own stuff. The result is 40 years of mediocre films with the very occasional flash of brilliance (Almodovar, for example).

I think another trend worth mentioning is the point where the popular song became the recording. If you go back 60 years to Crosby and Sinatra you find two singers of songs... one who was a great live singer (Sinatra) and one who was the dawn of the "media singer".

Until that time (roughly) the popular song would be recognised separate to the record. But Crosby was born for radio, film and record. The evolution was slow and even in the Sixties you can still see the musicals' domination of the charts (the best-selling record almost every year pre-Beatles was a musical soundtrack).

Chart-watchers must be baffled looking at those lists... sometimes 3 or 4 versions of the same song in the chart by different acts, bought by their fans over the competition. The song, the act and the record were still separate. Films had songs in, musicals were built with songs and radio featured performers singing songs, just like an audio version of a gig... that was all to change.

Nowadays a film soundtrack is compiled from records... the act writes their own records... and radio plays records. Every song has only one fate... it will be a record. The gig is the current album (plus some old singles). But I don't think this is necessarily permanent. While the world worries about the transition of the CD to the download (audio-centric or what?), I wonder if the popular song is in fact breaking free from its audio cage.

A song used to be the software for a multi-media performance. When Blondel tarted it up for royalty way back when, he was a multi-media experience. Yep, he had the songs but the ladies (and gents) could also admire his butt in those tights (if they were close enough they could probably smell his butt in those tights). He wasn't just delivering audio and right through to WW2 it was the same. And that seems to be where we're headed back to.

With downloads and multi-media (YouTube...) there's no reason to treat the song as "audio that is property of the act and destined only to be a record of which there may be a video".

Audio records were great. They were, and are, my life. But I'm a dinosaur - historically records were a blip in the music industry. For around 100 years they ruled, while the popular song has ruled for centuries. But why should the audio-centric business continue? Why don't the kids love records? They have multi-media (games, text, radio, video, TV, ...).

Haldane said: "The only thing I can tell you about the future is that everything that hasn't happened yet, will happen." Maybe we're seeing a tiny bit right now. And if there's one thing I love more than records it is songs... so it's not bad being a dinosaur.

Great songwriters of any age are rare, and I agree... until records (see my other post) the two things were separate. It makes for better songs AND better performers.

Only to discover that it's a brand new recording by the smash Broadway 2006 cast of the Best Revival Tony - The Pyjama Game!

What goes around...

JK I totally agree with you 100%. You are on the money again as usual. Not only is this a brilliant idea i think it is an essential idea. I would love to find a pool of experienced writers to co-write material for the artists im developing down here in OZ. For a number of reasons but the main one would be that it makes a great marriage of convenience hehe.
Their expertise and experience and the young ones enthusiasm and street smart ideas.
I also believe that in this day and age with the internet and word of mouth marketing de rigeur for independent labels and artists it is essential to get proper 'hits' and with all the best will in the world
youngsters are not very good at delivering hits without help. Just my observation. Im going to be putting together a free ebook guide about making and profiting from running your own 'online music business'. Songwriting is going to be an important part of this guide and teaming up and collaborating with good successful writers not necessarily the usual suspects the majors always chase.

I've come to the conclusion JK that today we need a good team of about 3 people to come up with the hits.
Look at SAW they had their team and came up with a gazillion hits. I think now i just need that extra man in my team to complete the package and can deliver hit after hit.
So im gonna throw it out to all you tipsheet regulars. Perhaps we can develop a hit writing team
direct from this board and go well on our way to fashioning the new music industry formula !

Also for the guide which is a free guide if you want to be listed as a writer and can operate across the internet, then please contact me as well.

Contact me at COntact KZ Now

Both ways of producing music (songwriters write songs / singers perform, record & singer-songwriters) are valid ways of creating music or even art. And with both methods you can create crap.

The popular song as we know it today is the product of the music industry (Tin Pan Alley) and the industrialisation (which created the mass audience). Before that time popular music was folk music. In folk there was no division between

Both ways of producing music (songwriters write songs / singers perform, record & singer-songwriters) are valid ways of creating music or even art. And with both methods you can create crap.

That's true but separate writer/performer has one significant benefit: if the writer produces a dud it's less likely to picked up by a singer. There's a built-in arms race with seperation that tends to improve the writing and the singing BEFORE they get onto the market.

With singer/composer there's no hurdle to jump between the song and the record... and that can be tragic for big artists who desperately need that old A&R magic to weed out the mush.

Regarding experience... McCartney certainly got better between Please Please Me and The Long And Winding Road, but I take your point that neither is a "better" song. And there are writers who are talented from day one as Costello was (although he did more growing up in private than Macca). I think you can find examples of best work early and best work later.

Taking your points together I think it's important in a folk context that there are many writers and performers competing for repertoire-room across the genre. That produces comedy, love songs, protest, show pieces and novelties... and the more popular naturally displaces the less popular. I think that is the experience that's more important. In the Coldplay world (just an example) that variety and competition is missing and what goes on the next record is the best thing they come up with. Of course, sometimes that's good enough... but writers today are talking to their fans in a narrow dialogue that doesn't generate songs with wider popular appeal.

Or perhaps I'm just rambling...

With specialisation (seperation of functions) there are more opions and this should lead to better results. But Elvis Presley (his manager sabotaged Leiber/Stoller) is only one example of financial considerations overriding artistic ones.

One of the main problems for artists like Coldplay is that they don

I could say I meant the album... or that Macca got better than Lennon... but to be honest I couldn't think of an early McCartney song without getting the album out

Briggsy's work on the development of Robbie into a massive global music force through hard work, getting it right with Guy, and everything that went into that act is an inspiration. I much admire Briggsy. I hope there is a Robbie Williams of some sort in my musical future, and I will not hesitate for a second to hunt down Chris Briggs for advice, and look to his example in making it work.